Government Operations Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2020

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

The puck I'll use as my gavel today is an Ottawa Senators puck, but in fairness to the Leafs, it is a Senators puck signed by Dion Phaneuf, who played for the Leafs. I will use that as my gavel today and call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 11 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. The committee will meet today from 3:17 p.m. my time, which is 4:17 p.m. your time.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation of the video conference will work very much the way it does in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. In order to assist the interpreters, we would ask that when you speak, you choose the language you are speaking. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you're ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. When you're not speaking, please have your microphone on mute. To raise a point of order during the meeting, committee members should ensure their microphone is unmuted and say “point of order” to get the chair's attention.

In order to ensure social distancing in the committee room, if you need to speak privately with the clerk or analysts during the meeting, please email them through the committee email address. For those who are participating in the committee room, please note that masks are required unless seated and when physical distancing is not possible.

We have a busy day today. Just so that we're on time and we can move in camera.... Unfortunately, at this point in time, we're still working on that. We may not be able to move in camera. However, assuming that we can, in the second hour each party will have five minutes to speak. Then we will go in camera. If we are unable to go in camera, we will continue with the regular schedule of questions at that time.

With that said, I will now invite the Parliamentary Budget Officer to make his opening statement.

Monsieur Giroux, welcome.

[Yves Giroux, Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To all the members of the committee, thank you for the invitation.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today to discuss our analysis of the government's main estimates and supplementary estimates (B) for 2020-21, which were published on March 12 and November 4, 2020 respectively.

With me today are our lead analysts on the main and supplementary estimates reports, Jill Giswold and Jason Stanton.

The government's main estimates for 2020-21, tabled on February 27, 2020, outline nearly $305 billion in total budgetary spending authorities, $125 billion of which requires approval by Parliament.

A notable difference this cycle are the temporary changes that were made to Standing Order 81, extending the study period of the 2020-21 main estimates to December. This resulted in the need for an additional appropriation bill to ensure the government had enough funds until full supply receives royal assent, changing the way in which Parliament provides authority to organizations this fiscal year.

The second supplementary estimates for the 2020-21 fiscal year total $79.2 billion in additional budgetary authorities, $20.9 billion of which requires approval by Parliament. Another key difference this fiscal year is that the government introduced several bills to authorize spending for COVID-19-related measures, and therefore did not need to seek authorities from the usual supplementary estimates process. These changes have made it more challenging to determine where the source of the authority has been provided, especially since some of these bills provided only temporary authority.

My office developed a monitoring framework to assist parliamentarians to keep track of all the government's announcements related to COVID-19. That is available on our website. This tracking document enumerates the COVID-19 measures announced by the government and indicates whether they were included in supplementary estimates (A) or (B). It also provides high-level implementation and spending data collected by the PBO from numerous federal departments and agencies through information requests. We will continue to monitor government announcements related to COVID-19 and update the document as we receive more information. I want to underline that this has been achieved by assigning only two analysts to this task, suggesting that the government could easily do it if it wanted to.

We would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have regarding our analysis of the government's main estimates or supplementary estimates, or other PBO work.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Giroux. I appreciate your comments.

We will now go into our first round of questioning.

We will start with Mr. Paul-Hus, for six minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon and welcome, Mr. Giroux. It's always nice to see you.

In your opening statement, you were very clear about the difference between the billions of dollars in authorities voted on by Parliament and the other expenditures set out in the supplementary estimates. That makes a big difference to your work because it means you have less access to the information relating to the funding approved by Parliament.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

[Yves Giroux]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

You're right. With respect to the funding voted on by Parliament for the various COVID-19 support measures, we don't have access to the same level of information that we did before. That has only been the case since Parliament was prorogued.

Prior to prorogation, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance was receiving biweekly updates on spending committed to date for the various support measures. When Parliament was prorogued, committees ceased to exist and the updates stopped. Like many people around the country, I was expecting the biweekly updates provided to the Standing Committee on Finance, and Canadians as a whole, to resume once Parliament and committees started back up in September and October. That did not happen, however.

For the time being, then, we have a set of program cost estimates, but those estimates cover the entire year. What we are still missing is the amount spent to date on each of the programs. That information is harder to obtain. That said, it is not impossible to provide the information given that the government had been doing so up until the beginning of August.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

It's worrisome that someone like you, whose job it is to provide oversight, does not have access to information that was previously available. Since prorogation, the rules under which committees were able to fulfill their roles don't appear to have been reinstated. If you know why that is, please tell me. I, myself, find it surprising. The lack of transparency is even greater considering that we are in the midst of a pandemic and we are trying to figure out where we are headed.

Were you given any explanation as to why the government is no longer providing the updates?

[Yves Giroux]

I believe the Standing Committee on Finance had asked the government for the information or the government had committed to providing it to the committee.

Many people and think tanks monitored the information quite closely, as did my office. We followed it closely. Being able to track, almost in real time, government spending on each of the measures—including the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB—provided a very good sense of where the economy stood and how appropriate certain measures were. We could tell whether the demand for certain measures ended up being low, contrary to initial expectations. That was the case, for example, with the Canada emergency wage subsidy. The government could use the information to make adjustments. In addition, the opposition parties and other groups could use it to ask questions and suggest program changes. The lack of these real-time updates has made our job harder given that we are supposed to hold the government to account for its measures.

It is possible to obtain the information, though. We regularly submit requests to departments, but even though they tend to be responsive, we always have to wait for the information. It's not the same as receiving information that is provided by the government itself through an established and ongoing mechanism.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You are accustomed to submitting requests for information to the Receiver General of Canada to find out how much has been spent on certain measures. When it comes to the spending on COVID-19 measures, do you receive the information you are looking for in relation to awarded contracts, protective equipment and vaccines, for instance? Do you ask for that type of information, and if so, do you receive it?

[Yves Giroux]

Ms. Giswold and Mr. Stanton can probably provide further information on COVID-19 matters involving contracts for vaccines and protective equipment.

Overall, I would say we have the information we need. As for the information requests we've made these past few months, there have been a few hiccups here and there. Some departments had trouble responding, but they were the exception rather than the rule. Generally, we didn't have any problems getting the answers to our questions.

Ms. Giswold and Mr. Stanton probably have more to say about vaccines and protective equipment.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Please go ahead, Ms. Giswold.

[Jill Giswold, Analyst, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer]

Thank you for your question.

We received the information on vaccine spending from the Public Health Agency of Canada, but it includes high-level data on expenditures and the implementation of the measures. The departments responsible would be in a better position to provide additional details.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

As for Treasury Board—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Paul-Hus, you only have 20 seconds.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Very well.

In that case, I will just say thank you for your answers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We will go to Mr. Drouin, for six minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

that is not to be that you would only reason you wantThank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank Mr. Giroux and his team for being here.

Mr. Giroux, I'm going to continue along the same lines as Mr. Paul-Hus.

The commercial rent assistance and other measures have been discussed. You mentioned CERB. Previously, the government was giving the Standing Committee on Finance updates every two weeks on those program expenditures.

Was anything like that ever done before COVID-19 hit? Can you recall whether that was common practice under other governments?

[Yves Giroux]

That's a good question.

If I really think back, I can't recall very many cases where it was common practice. I can't think of any situations where a committee was receiving such regular updates. That doesn't mean, however, that it was never done. What I remember may just be a sign of my age and my diminishing mental faculties.

I should also point out that, prior to taking this position, I didn't pay as much attention to parliamentary proceedings as I do now. Nevertheless, providing updates to a House of Commons committee as the government was doing during the COVID-19 crisis was certainly not common practice before. I would say it's a fairly new practice.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I know you were in office prior to COVID-19. I wasn't the one who made remarks about you; I will let you be the one to speak about yourself. That doesn't mean, however, that I share your views.

How did you receive financial information prior to the COVID-19 crisis—so before the government began providing the information to the finance committee every two weeks?

I know the finance department puts out a monthly economic update that includes expenses and so forth. Is that a source of information for your office?

[Yves Giroux]

Yes, the “Fiscal Monitor” is a monthly publication that we look at closely. The information it provides is high level, so it doesn't give spending details by program, whether for CERB or other specific programs.

When we need more detailed information, we submit requests to federal departments and agencies; we send a formal letter that I sign requesting the information. I, myself, send those requests to the ministers in charge. Generally, we give them two to three weeks to reply, depending on how complex the measures are. That is usually the best way to obtain the information we need to do our work. Obviously, if the information is already public, we consult those sources, like everyone else. When the information is not publicly available, though, we send out those requests.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I imagine you are very familiar with the GC InfoBase website, which provides other data. It's something a number of Treasury Board presidents have often mentioned.

Do you find the website useful for finding information that is not made available through the estimates process?

[Yves Giroux]

Although the website has improved considerably in recent months, it provides aggregate data, so again, fairly high-level information.

For the most part, the information available on the website about COVID-19 programs relates to voted appropriations or funding provided with the source. For example, the website indicates whether the funding is part of supplementary estimates (A) or (B), but does not list total expenditures to date. It provides the maximum amount for the year as well as the current status of the supplementary and main estimates.

The data can help provide an idea of the maximum size of programs, but not an idea of the actual demand for the programs or the actual expenses already incurred. For that reason, it's not all that useful to my office or the people I work with.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I'm not sure what the government can do. Consider the Canada emergency wage subsidy, for example. When the government launches a program, people may not apply for it during the first two or three months—perhaps because of a lack of education and awareness—but they may access it later.

What suggestions do you have for the committee? Would you recommend that the government post the information on GC InfoBase? Do you wish to continue working with the Treasury Board? Was there any information the Treasury Board did not provide within an acceptable time frame? Are you recommending that the information be made available on a website like GC InfoBase or that more information be provided through the estimates process? My understanding, though, is that some programs are not reported on in the estimates because it's impossible to determine the final cost—the Canada emergency wage subsidy, for instance.

[Yves Giroux]

That's a good question.

The mechanism the government uses to communicate the information is not what matters most. It could be done through GC InfoBase or reports to this committee, the finance committee or another committee. Perhaps the government could do what it was doing before and provide updates every two weeks or at some other interval.

I think having up-to-date information on the expenses incurred to date was very useful to parliamentarians when it came to determining whether Canadian should have access to more funding under certain programs.

I'll give you an example of when it was useful to receive information in real time. When CERB was in high demand among Canadians, it was a sign of trouble in the labour market. Conversely, when the demand for CERB dropped, it was a sign that the labour market might be picking up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Giroux.

The time is up. If you have anything further to add to that, you can put it in writing. We'd appreciate it.

Ms. Vignola, you have six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Giroux. Thank you for being here this afternoon.

I'd like to discuss your comparison between the joint support ships and the Asterix.

Let's consider the construction costs of the joint support ships as compared with the costs associated with the Asterix and a potential Obelix. If we compare the two by dividing the construction costs by the annual leasing costs for the Asterix, assuming that the ships will require the same maintenance every year, is it fair to say that the Asterix would become cost-effective in or around year 15, whereas it would be much later for the joint support ships, somewhere around year 40?