Evidence of meeting #12 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nuctech.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Burton  Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
Christian Leuprecht  Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
David Mulroney  Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, 2009-2012, As an Individual
Stephanie Carvin  Associate Professor, Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Paul Cardegna
Ward Elcock  As an Individual

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Should we be banning groups like the Confucius Institute outright?

What steps should we take to stop the magic weapons and all these other programs they are using against us?

5:05 p.m.

Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, 2009-2012, As an Individual

David Mulroney

I've written that one thing we should copy is the Australian foreign influence measures that look at people who are acting on behalf of other states or state-controlled actors and make it an offence not to disclose who is paying you to say things, who is paying you to do things in this country. That would be a significant step, but that also involves giving the intelligence community investigative powers and adding criminal sanctions to punish those who are doing this.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Is there anything you see in the Australian version that we wouldn't want to do here? I know the Americans have their foreign agents act that goes back to the 1930s. Is the Australian one a better one to copy? Should we take some from the U.S. one? Are there parts of the Australian one that go too far or not far enough?

5:05 p.m.

Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, 2009-2012, As an Individual

David Mulroney

It's still early days with the Australian one but we're seeing that it has some bite and some effect and, as Professor Burton has mentioned, it certainly got the attention of the Chinese.

What I think is important is it makes explicit what should be explicit anyway, that if you've had a senior position in government, certainly if you've been a minister, you need to disclose if you're on the payroll of a foreign state and acting on that behalf, and failure to do that should result in criminal sanctions.

I think the Australians have taken tough measures but they are absolutely the right measures.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That's wonderful.

Professor Burton, do you want to chime in?

5:10 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

Yes, the argument that's made on Senator Yuen Pau Woo's website, that Canada does not need this comparable legislation because we don't have those sorts of issues going on and that our existing arrangements are already fully able to address problems of retired officials who receive benefits from a foreign state, particularly China, is utter nonsense. I think what's going on in Australia and New Zealand is almost certainly going on in Canada.

Other concerns have been raised that the Australian legislation might not be compatible with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I'd like to see a serious study done of it, to see if that is in fact the case. I don't see why anyone would object to such legislation because it simply allows transparency, and sunshine is the best disinfectant.

I think we do have a serious problem—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Professor Burton.

We now have Mr. Kusmierczyk as our final questioner.

December 7th, 2020 / 5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Chair, I'm going to delegate my time to my colleague, Mr. MacKinnon.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Certainly.

Mr. MacKinnon.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Kusmierczyk and Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask Mr. Elcock to respond just because it seems to me we haven't heard a lot from him today.

Should Canada not procure anything from China?

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

I think, Mr. Chair, that's probably unrealistic. China is still a trading partner of Canada and is likely to be so into the future. If you were to ask Canadian rapeseed farmers and pork farmers, I suspect they envisage trading with China.

Do we need to trade with China a lot more carefully? Yes, we do, but to do that, ultimately we really need to have a policy with respect to our relationship with China. I would agree—I think it was David Mulroney who also said this— that we ultimately need to find partners amongst other countries around the world in confronting China. To suggest that we would do it on our own is probably unrealistic—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

I'm going to stop you there because we have very limited time, Mr. Elcock. My question was about procurement, specifically federal government procurement. Should we stop procuring from China?

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

I think that probably is unrealistic, but again, if you have a policy on what your relationship with China is and it's clearly stated, and you are more careful—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

It's nuanced. I'm sorry to keep interrupting you, sir, but we don't have a lot of time. It is nuanced. There's a point at which you'd stop not procuring from China.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

Yes. That's exactly right.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

Presumably for broom handles and paper clips, that's all fine.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

If we were to stop procuring below that line for things we deemed sensitive, what would we expect China's reaction to that to be to, say, a Canadian technology supplier to China? What would we expect that to be?

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

They're probably already not going to buy much in the way of technology from Canada. Nortel tried to sell into China without any success, so the reality—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

That's a 20-year-old example, but....

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

It's nonetheless true today.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

As a 10-year-old example, BlackBerry never sold into China. Shopify doesn't sell into China.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

I doubt very much whether they were able to sell very much into China.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

The point I'm taking from you, though, is that it's probably case-by-case.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

It's case-by-case, but also, as David Mulroney said earlier, we need a policy. We need to know what our policy is with respect to China. Once you know what the policy is, many of the other decisions will fall out from that, together with building a relationship with other countries that allows us to confront China much more clearly than we can now.