Evidence of meeting #23 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Paul Cardegna
Glenn Purves  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Roger Ermuth  Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat

5 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I'd be happy to answer that question, Mr. Chair.

In the context of how we manage spending authorities for our estimates, documents for supplementary estimates [Technical difficulty—Editor] primarily in the realm of appropriation-dependent organizations.

I'll give you an example. The Department of National Defence has their vote 1 in operating and they draw funds with the authority of Parliament from the consolidated revenue fund. That's within our scope, okay, but if it's a situation where a department has statutory authority to draw funds and to make transfers, either from the Income Tax Act or the EI Act, and to draw from the EI operating account and so forth—something that is beyond the scope of an appropriation-dependent department—those programs are effectively out of scope in terms of what we focus on in the estimates. Our intent has always been to be able to collect the information that is best within our swim lanes. That is the bulk of what we would call the “direct support measures” under the economic response plan for COVID-19.

When we put out our report, we were able to follow the same measures that the [Technical difficulty—Editor] and are the same measures that are in the estimates. People can actually take a measure and compare it with the spending authorities that a department has received in order to spend, and they can compare it with what was approved and set out in the fiscal plan in the fall economic statement. When I talk about financial transparency, literacy, comprehension and utility, it's really ensuring that parliamentarians are able to have that mapped back. That's what we can control.

[Technical difficulty—Editor ] amount of engagement, and these are incremental authorities that have been provided over the years. In addition to that, the effort to provide a sense, a line of sight as to [Technical difficulty—Editor] spending that had been redirected to be able to address COVID-19, is something that is separate and distinct. We're still trying to collect that information on a monthly basis. Again, we would be happy to provide the disaggregated data for both the measures but also that collective effort. We would be able to provide this to this committee.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you for that. I'm sure there'll be quite a bit of interest within our committee for just that.

To go back to the report you submitted, how was the format of the report decided upon?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

The format of the report was a [Technical difficulty—Editor] ensuring transparency, something that was useful to parliamentarians and committee members, and something that was able to be generated on a timely basis.

When we collect all of this disaggregated information, we have the numbers [Technical difficulty—Editor]. We're committed to providing that disaggregated information back to the committee, but at the same time, it takes [Technical difficulty—Editor] a year's worth of monthly comments. We're happy to do that.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

The bell just went.

We will now go to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I must point out that the connection continues to be poor. Unfortunately, I have never heard the interpreters mention so frequently that the speech is inaudible and the connection is too poor. I feel bad for them. Their work must certainly not be easy.

In the briefing note that we received so that we could prepare for this meeting, I was looking at the various expenditures and I saw that the National Capital Commission had received the Canada Emergency Commercial Rent Assistance.

From which organizations does the National Capital Commission rent space, thereby allowing it to ask for that assistance?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Madame Vignola, if you're talking about the $1.9 million budgetary voted amount, we'd be happy to get back to you. That is an answer the National Capital Commission could certainly furnish us with, and we can get back to you on that.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you very much.

With regard to the National Battlefields Commission, in which budget will we see the amounts paid to commission employees who were victims of Phoenix? Will it be in this budget or the next?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

On the National Battlefields Commission, you're speaking about the budgetary voted amount. Right now it's zero as of the end of January. Our intention is to provide an update on April 15 that would include the February information. We will see if there are additional amounts that have been spent by the organization there. The budgetary statutory amount of $1.1 is an amount that's already been spent.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

[Technical difficulties] the compensation that they are hoping to receive as federal employees.

Recently, we have also seen on the news…

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I apologize. That might be something that's separated into [Technical difficulty—Editor] what's been tagged as a COVID-19 item. It may [Technical difficulty—Editor] gone through, but we'd be happy to follow up with them on that.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Ms. Vignola.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you so much.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

We'll now go to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, through you to Mr. Purves, how much money has been approved to date in direct measure supports for tax liquidity support and other liquidity and capital relief, respectively, to respond to COVID-19?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I don't have that information. I think the Department of Finance would be best placed to answer that question.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

In the reporting, you have the disaggregated data line by line. Do you have aggregated data per category? Are there places where some of these things are grouped together more than just by department?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

When you think about it in framing that you put it—health and safety, direct supports, and then there's the capital and the liquidity supports—we really focus on chapters 1 and 2 of the fall economic statement. Those are measures that effectively have received funding through the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act and other statutory authorities, as well as coming through in terms of voted authorities through the estimates.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Would the cash paper buyback program from the Bank of Canada be part of one of those spending authorities?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

No, it wouldn't. It would be separate and distinct. It would probably be on the liquidity side.

The Department of Finance is the one that would be best placed to answer those questions, because they would be tracking on the liquidity side.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Wouldn't the Treasury Board also have a role and responsibility in tracking of expenditures?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

[Inaudible—Editor] expenditure. If it's liquidity support, that would be separate and distinct from our realm, which is items that run through the estimates. The Bank of Canada is not an appropriation-based organization.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Would tax liquidity supports outside of the Bank of Canada also fall within that, or [Technical difficulty—Editor]? I look at CMHC and others. I would assume that that's part of liquidity support in some way.

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

There are some budgetary measures for CMHC, for instance, that fall within...on the appropriation basis, but if it's something like mortgage bond program, that's [Technical difficulty—Editor] on a borrowing basis, and there's a liquidity element to it, and that's separate and distinct.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I'll just share that I'm not fully confident right now that TBS has a full handle on COVID spending. I'm just going to say that. It's not a personal thing, Mr. Purves, but just based on my questions, I'm not confident, as a result of the inability to answer some of these questions that have been generated, that the department has a clear scope on what's happened over COVID. I think there's going to be some work cut out for this committee, and probably the public accounts committee too, in the very near future.

Thank you.