Evidence of meeting #27 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Glover  President, Shared Services Canada
Matt Davies  Deputy Chief Technology Officer, Shared Services Canada

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

I don't think they would do that.

It is shocking to me that, in an era when cybersecurity—

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I have a point of order, please.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

—is among our largest threats, these members continue to insist that we divulge—

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Ms. Harder.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate your giving me the floor, and I appreciate my honourable colleague respecting you, in your position as chair, as he so urges others in this committee to do on a frequent basis.

Chair, it would appear that the member who is speaking right now is actually misleading the committee and those who might be watching. The member who is speaking right now said that my colleagues and I—

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I apologize, Mr. Chair, but that's not a point of order.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

That is not a point of order.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

No, it is absolutely a point of order.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That's for the chair to decide, not you, Francis.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Order.

Mr. MacKinnon, I have stopped your time.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Ms. Harder.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

The member is saying that we would like to see that confidential information be made known to the committee. That actually hasn't been our request, though we would welcome that as well. Our request has been that the witness be able to tell us why it was redacted.

I would very much appreciate, through you, Chair, if the member could stick to the facts and not mislead other individuals who are watching.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Ms. Harder.

Mr. MacKinnon, please continue with your questioning.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

Thank you.

The witness has sworn to and has taken an oath to uphold national security secrets, cabinet confidences and other critical information. He is owed the benefit of the doubt by this committee and the Parliament of Canada that he is following that oath to its total conclusion.

In thanking Mr. Glover for his service, and especially for the work on building out the very network we're discussing today so that it may serve public servants everywhere in Canada in the pandemic environment, I want to ask him to describe a little bit the network environment he observed and inherited when he took this job. I know that it was in the midst of being repaired and redressed. I want to ask him to spell out what he discovered and his basic philosophy in maintaining and building that network infrastructure.

4:15 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

This will hopefully answer other members' questions about why certain pieces of information have been withheld.

On any given day, when I arrived at Shared Services two years ago, there were over 400 unplanned outages per day. This past year, we had almost 80-some thousand unplanned outages. That's about 200 a day. That's the state of the infrastructure, so we've made significant improvements. Of those unplanned outages, the number that are critical is pretty small but significant, and it's about 300—just a little less than 300 critical outages. That's where services to Canadians or public servants who need those services desperately to do their jobs are out for an extended period of time.

We're racing to fix some of these old outdated systems faster than they are breaking to make sure that public servants have the tools they need to serve Canadians.

The security issues that we, for example, why we wouldn't disclose the location of a data centre... On any given day, as Scott Jones testified to this very committee, there are two billion malicious activities that we intercept, each and every day. These are not theoretical cyber-threats. They are real. They are organized, and they would desperately love to know the details of our architecture and the location of that architecture.

Therefore, absolutely, I will take my responsibility to protect that information, because they are assets of the nation that this government uses to serve Canadians.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

I assume that any decision, any procurement decision—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.

Unfortunately, in respect of the time and with the vote, just so everyone is aware, we are going to suspend the meeting until after the vote and then we will reconvene after the vote with the questions.

With that said, the meeting is suspended until after the vote.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

We will now resume the meeting with questions.

Ms. Desbiens, please proceed, for two and a half minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Glover, one of your roles is to provide information to the Minister with respect to the systems modernization process and the proposals that are being made.

Is all the information given to the Minister? Is any of it left out?

4:55 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Thank you for your question.

Absolutely, I have a responsibility to keep the minister informed and aware of the activities of Shared Services Canada, but that also includes a certain separation, for example, on things like procurement decisions and others where it is the department's responsibility and not the minister's.

It is difficult to overgeneralize, but there is definitely a regular flow of information. It is dependent upon the authorities and delegations with respect to the timing and the level of detail.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you for your response.

Does Shared Services Canada tell the various departments and entities which vendor to choose, or are they free to select the company of their choice?

5 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

We set up the supply arrangements. Departments come to us with their requirements, and we go to market to fill them. We do that, either through competitive processes.... If you look at the materiel, that's about 87% of the time, a little over $1.13 billion. Sometimes we do that through a non-competitive process, because of the urgent nature of the requirement. That's about 13% of the time. It represents about $170 million. They come to us, and we're responsible for the procurement.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you.

Do they need to confirm their choice with Shared Services Canada before moving forward, or do they have the final say?

Do they sign the contracts?

How does that part work?

5 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Frankly, it's pretty much final. If we go out through a competitive process, the requirements are the requirements. The submissions from industry are assessed against those requirements as per procurement policy. When a winner is selected, it has a right to supply.

The departments do not get to veto that. They do not get to choose. We go through a fair, open and transparent process, and use the procurement policy.