Evidence of meeting #27 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Glover  President, Shared Services Canada
Matt Davies  Deputy Chief Technology Officer, Shared Services Canada

April 28th, 2021 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)) Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

I will call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 27 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. The committee is meeting today from 3:32 p.m. to 5:32 p.m. We will hear from Shared Services Canada as part of the committee's study on procurement practices within Shared Services Canada, and then we'll discuss committee business.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants at this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen are not permitted.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules as follows. Interpretation in this video conference will work very much like in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

To raise a point of order during the meeting, committee members should ensure their microphone is unmuted and say “point of order” to get the chairman's attention. The clerk and the analysts are participating in the meeting virtually today. If you need to speak with them during the meeting, please email them at the committee email address. The clerk can also be reached on his mobile phone.

For those people who are participating in the committee room, please note that masks are required unless seated and when physical distancing is not possible.

I will now invite the witnesses to make their opening statements.

Go ahead, Mr. Glover.

3:35 p.m.

Paul Glover President, Shared Services Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for your invitation to discuss the Gartner Canada report that you received on the network sourcing decision matrix benchmark. I am pleased to be here today to address any questions the committee may have with respect to the report.

Mr. Chair, I want to state at the outset that I have the utmost respect for this committee and its important function in our democracy. I greatly support the work of the committee and I am committed to helping its members better understand how Shared Services Canada is working to modernize our networks in order to better serve Canadians.

I am here today to provide you with as much information as possible to aid you in this work. It is also why, when responding to the committee's request, I included additional information that was not originally requested, but which I hope will be helpful to the committee and answers questions that members had previously posed to me and members of my organization.

However, I am bound, as the president of Shared Services Canada, to steward our information in a manner that respects different priorities, including our democratic processes, the integrity of proprietary information and national security. That said, know that I am fully committed to assisting the committee with your endeavour to understand the network space.

As president of Shared Services, I support the Minister of Digital Government in providing federal public servants with the tools and the IT infrastructure they need to deliver the programs and services Canadians expect in a digital era—services that are delivered on secure and reliable networks.

When it was created, Shared Services Canada inherited many different independent and non-standardized departmental networks. I would encourage members to review the “Network Modernization Way Forward” document, in particular pages 11 through 15, for details of what we inherited and what has changed over time. Our work is ongoing as we continue to take an enterprise approach to modernization. This means we will continue to consolidate, standardize and modernize our networks right across government.

It is essential that the Canadian government keep pace. As the pandemic has shown, it is even more critical in a crisis. Over the past year, we were able to respond quickly when urgent changes were needed and adoption of solutions were required at an unprecedented speed. We were able to increase our network capacity, provide widespread secure, remote access and roll out collaboration tools that allowed public servants to work securely, as well as remotely.

However, the complexity and the pace of change in the digital environment means that we need to be prepared for significant and ongoing upgrades and technical innovations, such as software-defined infrastructure, where critical IT infrastructure and functions like data centres are fully automated and programmable. We also need to ensure that we have the IT infrastructure that can take advantage of emerging technology such as artificial intelligence, machine learning, 5G capacity and potential innovations that might transform federal service delivery, such as multi-user supercomputers and in time, quantum computing.

As we go forward, we are engaging with industry in advance of setting up long-term contracting vehicles to deliver a common set of services to all government departments and partners, rather than the customized services that exist today. To that end, SSC is developing a modern enterprise network and security strategy to increase network, cloud and mobile access and ensure agile service delivery to all our partners. The new model aligns with government priorities to allow us to work smarter and more efficiently, as well as more reliably.

In developing this strategy, we must consult with third parties to ensure our approach is responsive, reflective of industry trends and has sound governance. In this context, SSC proactively engaged Gartner, an industry-leading research firm. We asked Gartner to review our network and security documentation, to give us advice on developing an approach for decision-making for future network equipment sourcing and to look at specific case studies within SSC to provide insight and advice on decisions that we have made on sourcing equipment.

Gartner made a number of recommendations—which have been shared with you—to ensure that our documentation follows industry standard practices, to help us standardize how we source our equipment through open and competitive procurements and to provide us with review mechanisms for when we need to deviate from this approach. These recommendations have provided Shared Services Canada with approaches to help balance business, technical, security and procurement risks and to create a network strategy that fosters accountability and transparency.

We subsequently updated our strategy paper and posted it on Canada.ca.

The “Network Modernization Way Forward” paper solicits feedback from industry partners and attempts to document our future state. This strategy will of course evolve as SSC continues to work with industry as part of its collaborative procurement process and to keep pace with the changes in technology and advancements in innovation.

To do our work, we need positive, functional vendor relationships. I take disclosure seriously. I take disclosure of information that would affect this relationship extremely seriously. I am mindful of the powers of the House of Commons for the production of documents and the role of members in holding the government to account. Part of my job as a senior public servant is to reconcile the exercise of those privileges with others, including national security, cabinet confidence and the confidentiality of business information.

In the report that I provided I itemized each and every redaction and included the reasons used to protect the information deemed confidential, in keeping with the practices of public disclosures of such information.

Making this information public would not only be making public Gartner's intellectual property and commercially sensitive information, but it could also be detrimental to the vendors included in this research. We looked at the report and only took out parts that would be a security risk or could jeopardize industry relationships and partners.

We take very seriously, Mr. Chair, the need for transparency, along with the need to protect the proprietary information of the companies that have entrusted us with it.

Thank you. We are now ready to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Mr. Glover. We appreciate your presentation.

We will now begin our first round of questioning. We'll start with Ms. Harder for six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Chair, and of course, welcome Mr. Glover, and thank you for your opening remarks.

I'll just start off with I guess a very simple question, and that is, who instructed the redactions from the Gartner report? When the committee requested it on March 22, 2021, the motion requested that the Gartner report be submitted to us in an unredacted form.

Who asked for those redactions to be made?

3:40 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

The short answer is, I did. As president of Shared Services Canada, as I outlined in my opening remarks, I have an obligation to protect national security and confidential business information. I also sought legal counsel and was advised that my actions are consistent with those responsibilities.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

There are several redactions surrounding the SSC's procurement process and the impacts that could occur if a competitive request for a proposal were held, rather than an original equipment manufacturer or OEM-specific procurement from the SSC. That's on several pages within this report.

Can you explain why those redactions would be made in those areas?

3:40 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

As per my letter, each of the redactions is indicated with a listing, so it would either have been for confidential business information reasons for the companies that were not comfortable with the disclosure of that information—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

In this case—on page 78, for example—it's actually because.... You list the reason as cabinet confidence. What I'm interested in, then, is that, to do the Gartner report, they had access to all of the information.

Why were they given access to something that is under cabinet confidence?

3:40 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

The majority of the redactions are related to confidential business information—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

No, I'm sorry; let me clarify, because I don't know whether you understood.

Page 78 says that it's “cabinet confidence”. Cabinet confidence is listed as the reason.

Why was cabinet-confidential information shared with Gartner?

3:40 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Mr. Chair, may I have a moment to look at the page in question?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I don't think you need to look at the page. The question is quite simple. Why would information that is cabinet confidence information be shared with Gartner?

3:40 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Mr. Chair, I'm trying to look at the very specifics to make sure that I provide the member with a full answer. I would be happy to follow up—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

No, it's okay. We can answer this today, I think.

If it's truly confidential, if it's truly held under cabinet confidence, then it should not have been shared with Gartner.

Why was it shared with Gartner, but the members of Parliament within this committee cannot see it?

3:40 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Mr. Chair, I had a chance to look at the page in reference to the member's questions. Gartner was not able to see any specific cabinet confidences. It speaks to cabinet meetings, their potential existence, which is a confidentiality issue and is not to be disclosed. Therefore, Gartner was not disclosed any cabinet confidential information.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Okay, so if they weren't disclosed any cabinet confidence information, then why is that section redacted? You're saying, on one hand, that it is cabinet confidential, and then, on another hand, you're saying that's not the case.

Mr. Glover, through the chair, which is it?

3:45 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Again, Mr. Chair, in response to the member's question, Gartner was not disclosed any cabinet confidences. They speak to cabinet—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Then, through you, Mr. Chair, why is the information redacted and why has Mr. Glover given the excuse that it is held under cabinet confidence to do the blacking out?

3:45 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Mr. Chair, I'm attempting to answer the member's question.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

No, you're attempting to skirt the member's question, through you, Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

For the sake of those who are listening, for those of us who are part of this debate and want to hear an answer to this particular question, and for the benefit of the translators as well, I simply ask that we allow the witness to respond to the question and provide a fulsome answer.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Mr. Kusmierczyk, I think Mr. Glover is able to answer the question and I would ask that everyone be respectful of everyone's time and try to recognize that the time commitment in asking those questions is very short and to be respectful of that.

I have stopped the clock for you, Ms. Harder, so I will restart it.

Please proceed.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Chair, when I look at this, this is Gartner's report and they wrote something in that report that is considered cabinet confidence.

Why were they able to write something that is considered cabinet confidence? Why do they have information that the MPs at this committee cannot have access to?

3:45 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Paul Glover

Mr. Chair, again I'm happy to attempt to respond to the member's question.

Gartner did not. The redaction was made under an interpretation that I had whereby they speak to processes about future meetings, and any references to future meetings that the government may have could be considered a cabinet confidence. They did not have access to it. They hypothesized—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Through you, Mr. Chair, why did they have access to that information if it is cabinet confidence? If it's not truly cabinet confidence, then why can that page not be made known to this committee?