Government Operations Committee on May 10th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much, Ms. Girard.

We'll now go to Ms. Vignola for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Girard, is any funding available to employees working remotely so they can set up an ergonomic workspace at home?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

Thank you for your question.

My colleague Mr. Yalkin can provide more information in a moment.

Yes, departments and agencies have made support available to employees so they can set up workspaces that will help them work productively as they deliver the necessary programs and services. That said, the type and level of support provided varies from one organization to another. In a public service as diverse as ours, there was no one-size-fits-all solution.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

When I mentioned the ergonomic work environment at home, I wasn't talking about the ability to provide services. I was really talking about the equipment.

Has any equipment or any money to buy equipment been provided to public servants to make their home work environment ergonomic?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

The short answer is yes, it has.

For example, the Treasury Board Secretariat allowed some people to pick up or order things for their work environment.

Having said that, again, the support depends on the case. On Wednesday, you will be meeting with Treasury Board colleagues who work in equipment procurement. They may be able to answer your questions in more detail.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

The compensation for the employees affected by the Phoenix pay system has been taxed. Last week, we learned that the Treasury Board Secretariat is delaying or refusing to give the Canada Revenue Agency the necessary directives to ensure that the compensation is not taxed.

Why doesn't TBS provide those directives without delay so that employees receive the full amount owed to them?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

Thank you for the question.

The first point I would like to make is that the issue of taxation falls under the Income Tax Act. It is not administered by the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Second, in October 2020, an agreement was established between the Treasury Board Secretariat and the Public Service Alliance, defining the conditions and stating that the interpretation is the responsibility of the Canada Revenue Agency. That is what was stipulated in the agreement.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So, both sides are passing the buck.

On another matter, 44% of francophone public servants have difficulty working in their mother tongue, for various reasons, whether because it's frowned upon by their anglophone colleagues or because they fear that it will harm their careers.

What is your organization doing to ensure that francophones can work in their mother tongue without fear of undue pressure from their colleagues and without fear of hindering the advancement of their career?

[Tolga Yalkin]

Mr. Chair, I can respond to that question.

In the context of the virtual shift to work that we saw with the advent of COVID, we took measures almost immediately to ensure that public servants could work in the official language of their choice. As committee members know, individuals who occupy bilingual positions in bilingual regions have language of work rights.

We quickly recognized that in a virtual environment it's so important for norms to be established so that the way in which people are given opportunities to use the official language of their choice is supported. We put very helpful, clear guidance on canada.ca, helping public servants navigate this environment and helping managers ensure that they provide their employees with the opportunity to work in the language of their choice. We worked very closely with PROLs, or persons responsible for official languages, in our community to ensure that deputy heads were aware of their responsibilities.

I'll also note that in October, both the chief human resources officer and the President of the Treasury Board wrote to their colleagues to underscore the importance of this issue in the context of remote work.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Although it has been discussed, even we francophone members of Parliament do not have access to certain webinars or information sessions in French. They are only available in English. Yet the Official Languages Act is not new.

So if we, as members of Parliament, do not have access to this in French, is it also the case for public servants? Do they also have webinars, training and information sessions in English only?

[Tolga Yalkin]

I can tell you that when it comes to public servants' language of work rights, we maintain that there should be parity of access to resources, training, guidance and so on.

I can speak as a manager too, I suppose, within my own organization. Whenever we provide such resources to public servants, we always take pains to make sure that the resources are available in both official languages, so that folks can work and read and understand material in the language of their choice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Yalkin.

We'll now go to Mr. Green for six minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I also want to extend my thanks and welcome to the witnesses who are here today.

I want to begin by changing the focus a bit. News reports today have dozens of people in long-term care facilities, potentially, based on military reports here in Ontario, having died from dehydration and neglect, which I think is to our country's great shame. I know there is a lot of finger pointing around jurisdiction and who is responsible for national standards, but there is one company that, through its Crown corporation ownership, is well within the purview of the TSB. That, of course, is Revera.

Revera has had, I believe, somewhere around 300 deaths within its facilities. I don't know if Revera is also included in the military report as it relates to the dehydration and negligence, but we know that back in 2007 the Public Sector Pension Investment Board purchased what was then termed a retirement residence real estate investment trust—a retirement REIT. Essentially, Revera is a real estate company masquerading as a care company. In some of my preliminary work on this it's very clear, through their own governance structure as put on the PSP website, that they report to ministers.

I have a question, through you, Mr. Chair, for Ms. Girard, who also happens to be involved in some of the pension work. What risk analysis has your department done through the Treasury Board, understanding the potential social and financial risks that could be presented through the Crown corporation ownership of Revera?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

It is indeed a very sad statement that we saw this year throughout the country in senior care facilities. The Government of Canada is working closely with provinces and territories to discuss this issue further.

To your point directly, regarding PSP Investment, PSP Investment is an entity at arm's length from the Government of Canada. It is managed under its own act, the Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act. The Treasury Board Secretariat provides the PSP with directions regarding the level of risk that it wants it to take with regard to employees' and the Government of Canada's pension contributions, but does not intervene in the investment strategy of the PSP.

I will stop here, because with regard to Revera, I understand there is a court case as well, and it would not be my place to comment on that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll share with you that they report to ministers responsible for pension plans through their quarterly financial statements and through their annual reports. On PSP's website, they have touted, within their governance, active ownership of public companies. They say that they use their ownership position to promote good corporate governance practices, exercising their proxy voting rights and engaging with companies on what they call “ESG issues”.

My original question was: Has the Treasury Board been apprised, through its quarterly report, of any risk assessments related to the operations of Revera through PSP? It's a very simple and direct question.

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

They report to Parliament through their reporting obligations under the act. They report on their performance, but again, the Treasury Board Secretariat does not direct the investment strategy with regard to the various classes of investment assets it has under its management. It could be real estate, or natural resources, or private or public class assets. We do not direct that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, through you, are there any mandates within the Treasury Board that cover ethical investments and ethical investment practices? If there are, are there risk management assessments in place that would see an investment that is tracking in deaths by the hundreds during the pandemic that might raise an alarm or concern within the Treasury Board, or is the Treasury Board completely devoid of any kind of societal risk analysis as it relates to its investments?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

With regard to the PSPIB, when qualifications are sought to appoint people to the management board of the PSPIB, socially responsible investment skills, knowledge and competencies are included.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, through you, respectfully, I have to interject. Does the witness not acknowledge any kind of responsibility for Crown corporations within the mandate of the Treasury Board, based on the mandate letters and within the policies pertaining to their investments?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

I have to remind committee member that the PSPIB is a Crown corporation that operates at arm's length, and reports to Parliament on its activities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Girard.

We now go to our second round of questioning. I'll just make everyone aware that to stay on time, I will be asking for responses in writing should you go to the very end of your time for questioning.

We'll start with Mr. Paul-Hus, for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to both of you.

First, I would like to know whether you have a specific plan for the return to work of federal employees.

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

Thank you for the question.

With respect to the return of employees to the workplace, for the time being, I must state the obvious: we are still managing the pandemic. So we don't expect a return to the workplace, on site, in the short term. However, when we get to another stage—and we hope that will be soon—it will be done very carefully and gradually.

As the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer has done to date, we will be looking at the different aspects to ensure that we are still working within the responsibilities that are assigned to each of the deputy heads and the collective agreements. We also want to keep health and safety in mind.

We will also be undertaking consultations, as all the directives that have been given—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's actually my next question. I assume you conducted some internal surveys, and I want to know if there's any reluctance.

Let's say everyone has two doses of the vaccine by September. In principle, people should be open to going back to the workplace, since the risk will be significantly reduced. But are some people still reluctant? Have some already indicated that they would prefer to continue teleworking?

We know that, in the private sector, some employees would prefer to continue working from home, even if there is no longer a pandemic.

Is this something you are assessing?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

It is actually an interesting prospect.

Once we are able to plan going back to the workplace, first, there will not be one solution that fits all. Given the number of organizations and the different mandates within the public service, it will be up to each deputy head to consider the activities and the requirements of the mandate.

Hybrid or alternative solutions may be considered. It is a matter of learning from the experience of the past year and a half. We will assess the flexibility we can offer, and this will be discussed with the deputy heads. Also, we always include the regional development councils in our consultations, to ensure that we have a Canadian perspective on things.