Government Operations Committee on May 12th, 2021

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Wonderful. Thank you very much.

Minister Duclos, I think I speak on behalf of the entire committee when I say we're delighted to see you back at OGGO and we're delighted to see you back in full strength as well. It's wonderful to see you again.

The TBS 2021-22 departmental plan states:

Access to reliable disaggregated data is essential for understanding the experiences of employees in designated employment equity groups and of those in other employment equity-seeking groups, and for identifying gaps in representation.

We know that diversity is incredibly important in our workforce and in the federal government and this ministry.

Could you provide an update on how TBS is generating and publishing disaggregated data?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you very much, Irek, for your kind remarks on my unfortunate inability a couple of times in the last few months to be fully in touch with you and to be fully supportive of your important work.

Thank you also for your very relevant question on diversity and inclusion. In Canada we're very proud of diversity in many different dimensions, but for that diversity to be meaningful, it has to come with inclusion. The Treasury Board Secretariat has a key role to play when it comes to making our public service fully inclusive. That comes, as you said, with the ability to generate and share disaggregated data.

To date, there have been seven sets of disaggregated data released to the public and to the public service, which in fact provide the first-ever view into the composition of 21 different employment equity subgroups. I repeat, it's the first-ever view on the disaggregated picture of our public service.

These numbers are based on those who have chosen to self-identify. We have a lot more work to do, because self-identification is sometimes an issue when it comes to sharing one's diversity and one's personality, one's person and one's identity. We have work to do.

Tolga might want to briefly add something on that. He's working very well with negotiating agents and various representatives and leaders of our diversity in the public service. We are looking forward to more work and to having more outcomes produced.

Tolga, you might want to briefly share further news on that.

[Tolga Yalkin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Workplace Policies and Services, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Yes, Minister. Thank you.

You mentioned the importance of self-identification. Our data is really only as good as the degree to which individuals feel safe and comfortable self-identifying with one of the equity-seeking groups.

We are currently working within Treasury Board Secretariat to develop an approach that will be more inclusive in the way in which it seeks that data from public servants, allowing them to, in effect, more completely and more accurately express their identity and demystifying and sharing with them information on the reasons for which that data is disclosed and how it can benefit them.

We're really looking forward to the richness that will add to the data we're actually able to collect.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's terrific.

I really appreciate just seeing the tremendous progress that's being made and the careful attention that's being brought to disaggregated data, so I really do appreciate both those responses.

We know that data is just one piece of the puzzle. Obviously you need data to be able to take action on it, but you also need to take action in order to increase diversification in the ranks. We know there are still gaps in the diversity of the executives in the public service, as highlighted in the TBS departmental plan.

What action has TBS taken, Minister, to increase the diversity of senior leadership in our public service?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you again, Irek, for being sensitive, interested and focused so much on that.

Yes, as you said, disaggregated data matters. We also have fixed targets when it comes to enhancing the diversity of our public service. As you may have noted, in the budget implementation act, 2021, we have introduced changes to the Public Service Employment Act, which will reduce not only barriers to entry but, certainly, barriers to the fulfillment of one's abilities in the public service, such as, promotion, feelings of well-being and fulfillment.

As you know, we are also going to invest, and we have invested significantly, in education and awareness opportunities and learning events. We are going to update the training with the Canada School of Public Service. We are going to set up a new federal speakers bureau on diversity and inclusion.

On senior leadership, we are going to review the appointment mechanisms. We're going to work on what may sometimes be useful external recruitment strategies. We're setting up mentorship activities to promote and support those who want to go further in their careers, and also implement the leadership development program.

It's all a work in progress. There is always more to do, but as you said, Irek, we can all, obviously, celebrate the progress we've made until now.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Minister. That's a fantastic response.

Mr. Chair, do I have any more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

You have 15 seconds.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I will yield those 15 seconds and simply say, “Go Leafs, go.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Vignola for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us today, Mr. Duclos. In two or three simple, short sentences, can you explain where we are in the process of compensating the employees who were victims of the failed Phoenix pay system?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you very much for the question, Mrs. Vignola.

Let me make three quick points.

First, as we have often said—though it always bears repeating—it is totally unacceptable for public service employees not to be paid correctly and on time for the services they have rendered. That is true not only for the public service, but also for all Canadians.

Second, that fact has been recognized and, with due respect and considerable speed, we have worked very hard with bargaining agents to reach a series of agreements, some in 2019 and others in 2020.

Third, those agreements are now in place and will result in the appropriate compensation being paid to public service employees who have suffered unacceptable harm, either financially or psychologically.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

I will be a little more specific, Mr. Duclos.

For several weeks, I have been receiving hundreds of emails—as you probably have too—about the fact that the Treasury Board Secretariat, the TBS, is refusing to provide the guidelines that the Canada Revenue Agency needs in order not to tax the employees' compensation. We have already discussed this.

At our meeting on Monday, Mr. Aylward, the National President of the Public Service Alliance of Canada, stated that his union and the TBS had come to an agreement on a statement of facts to be sent to the Canada Revenue Agency, but that TBS had not signed off on that statement.

What is holding the TBS back from signing the statement of facts that describes the compensation as not part of a salary and therefore not taxable?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you.

Your question actually lets me be a little more specific. Not only have the agreements I quickly mentioned been signed, but they are in the process of being implemented.

In the agreement to which you refer, clause 18 specifically states that the amounts in compensation payments are subject to the usual deductions. The Canada Revenue Agency, which is responsible for establishing the way in which those deductions are applied, has determined that some of those allowances should be taxable. That decision was made by Canada Revenue Agency officials, and, as I'm sure you are aware, I have no influence in that regard.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

The Canada Revenue Agency says that it is waiting for the statement and the guidelines from the TBS, and you are saying that you cannot, because it's their responsibility. So we really have to talk to you. As you have said, what the people are going through and continue to go through is unacceptable. It is high time for this to be settled. In addition, I've never seen allowances that are taxable. That opens up Pandora's box.

Some victims of Phoenix have retired and others are still having problems. This is another important matter. Some have still not received any compensation.

When will they get it?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That is an excellent question.

Obviously, the sooner the better. In some cases, it may take a little longer because we want to make sure that the compensation is what it is supposed to be. We certainly want to make sure that it is no lower than the people have a right to receive.

For more specifics on the timelines, I'm going to ask Ms. Cahill to answer, because she certainly knows more about the matter than I do.

Ms. Cahill, can you give us some more specifics?

[Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Former public service employees who came under the 2019 agreement have already begun to receive their compensation. In the case of former employees or retirees who came under the 2020 agreement, the timeframe for paying the compensation is by the fall of 2021. However, they can already submit a request to be compensated for the expenses they incurred as a result of the problems with the Phoenix pay system. That is in effect at the moment and always has been.

I just want to point out that they will receive more communications in the weeks and months to come.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

You are asking for $3 billion under vote 20, on public service insurance. That is an increase of more than 40% over the 2020-2021 budget.

Could you explain that increase for me?

In the supplementary estimates, will there also be requests for public service insurance?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That is an excellent question.

As the topic is a little too complicated for me to explain myself, I'll turn to Ms. Cahill once more, if she agrees to answer that question.

[Karen Cahill]

Of course.

The increase is indeed 40.4%, and it is explained by two factors. First, there is an increase of $795 million for public service insurance plans. That request was first in the Supplementary Estimates (B), 2020-2021. So this is ongoing.

There is also an increase of $78 million for the public service long-term disability insurance plan. That was in the Supplementary Estimates (A), 2020-2021. It is now included in our budgets as an expenditure. At the moment, although I can make no promises, we are not planning on any amounts in the supplementary estimates to come.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Cahill.

We'll now go to Mr. Green for six minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I would also like to welcome back my good friend, Minister Duclos. I'm happy to see you here, looking well and healthy and, hopefully, ready to take on the work ahead.

In your opening remarks, you mentioned efforts related to pay equity and implementation of the Pay Equity Act. According to your 2021-22 departmental plans, you were talking about working with departments and agencies to ensure compliance with official languages legislation and leading implementation of the Pay Equity Act in the core public administration in the RCMP.

Which departments and agencies are struggling most to comply with the official languages legislation?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Matthew. I'm not only glad to see you again, but I'm also glad to hear you ask questions on official languages. As you might expect, it's a key issue and a key interest for me at the Treasury Board. We're working every day to make sure that everyone in the public service is able to work in whichever official language they want to use, and is able to prosper, giving his or her full potential.

The secretariat has key roles to play, one of which is to make sure that the directive on the use of official languages is well understood by departments. If you would like to ask specific departments specific questions, that's—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Actually, I do have a specific question, through you, Mr. Chair. It relates to the ongoing operations of Parliament. I'm wondering what the Treasury Board has done, understanding that there have been frequent interruptions in our ability to have adequate standards and translation for our committees.

It's often the case that our democratic processes are capped at committee because we don't have the right kind of hybrid technology or the staffing in place to allow for the fullness of debates, discussions and, sometimes, government or opposition filibusters.

Notwithstanding the fact that we're going to be looking at this kind of hybrid model perhaps for the foreseeable future, what steps has the Treasury Board taken to ensure we have adequate support to comply with the Official Languages Act as it relates to our own operations as parliamentarians?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Matthew, as parliamentarians, we have not only a right but a duty to ask, as you've said, for the ability to operate in either of the official languages. If you and any other colleagues on the committee see areas in which things have to be improved, then you need to speak up and let those things go to the relevant people, either within the committee.... There are good and great people who I see on the screen. The clerk is certainly one of them. There are many others outside of this particular committee that should be there to support this obviously important—