Evidence of meeting #38 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Paul Cardegna
Jean-Yves Duclos  President of the Treasury Board
Roger Ermuth  Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat
Glenn Purves  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Rod Greenough  Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates, Treasury Board Secretariat
Tolga Yalkin  Assistant Deputy Minister, Workplace Policies and Services, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, it's wonderful to see you at committee yet again. I really appreciate your taking the time with us and I also really appreciate the answers you're providing to us.

The PBO report on supplementary estimates (A) highlights recent improvements in the government's reporting on COVID-19 response spending, including additions to the GC InfoBase. Could you share with the committee the measures you have taken to improve transparency in your financial reporting?

4:25 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you, Irek. Let me also thank you, and all the committee members, because we're not only very grateful to you but also very mindful of the very intense work you've done over the last weeks and months in this very extraordinary circumstance in which we find ourselves as Canadians. Thank you to you, but thank you to the whole team, obviously.

Regarding transparency, we not only know how important it is for the Canadian government to be transparent; we also hear from Canadians . That's why we have put in place a number of different practices.

Some of them were there before the pandemic, such as the GC InfoBase, the departmental plan and the departmental results reports. We had enhanced the ability for parliamentarians, such as you, to connect the information in the estimates, which is sometimes quite complicated. That's why I'm here today with my officials. It's to connect that information with the budget process, which is equally complicated but works on different rules and follows different timelines.

It's all a matter of being as clear and transparent as we can be so that we can demonstrate to Canadians the results of our investments for them and their families.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

That's terrific, Minister. I really appreciate that.

I know that this committee had asked for monthly spending reports as well. What advantages do you see this monthly reporting yielded or provided in terms of additional oversight and additional transparency? How has this process, in your opinion, benefited transparency?

4:25 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

You were not only right to ask but also entitled to ask for these monthly reports because of the obviously extremely severe and rapidly changing circumstances of the pandemic. You were provided with this information, which enabled you to connect the size and nature of the different investments we were making. That was alongside other important processes, as we all know, including the budget process and the legislative process. Mr. McCauley earlier alluded to the wage subsidy. That was an extremely important piece of work that Parliament did alongside the estimates process and the work of your committee.

Thank you to everyone for having asked for that. I know and have heard that it has been useful to your committee.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Minister, it's incredible that we have this enormous amount of information that your staff diligently and quickly put together. It's almost like seeing the expenditures in real time. It must have been a tremendous commitment on your team's part. Again, it's something that is incredibly appreciated, because it is quite helpful. It's an amazing amount of information that you have been able to provide to us over a short period of time. I think it demonstrates how you have prioritized transparency and communication on your team.

4:25 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

Irek, I would congratulate you on those specific words, because you seem to understand the value and the difficulty of the work they do at the secretariat. It's a very challenging role that they play. It's not easy, because they have to provide appropriate answers to your appropriate questions, and they are working in real time, as you said, especially in the context of the pandemic, which is moving so quickly also in real time.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Minister.

I have about a minute and a half left. Can you update this committee on your work to modernize the Treasury Board's rules on federal procurement?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

Yes. That's a very good question.

We want the procurement process to be efficient, open, inclusive and aligned with the priorities of Canadians and our government.

First, we want it to be efficient in using modern technology, obviously. We also want it to be inclusive of those businesses and those people who want to partner with the federal government in advancing our common objectives of social, economic and sustainable development. We want that to be open and transparent, again to facilitate both the efficiency and the inclusiveness, and we want that to be aligned with the social, environmental and economic objectives of our government.

Let me speak quickly about the social objectives, the objectives of supporting, for instance, indigenous procurement, making sure that indigenous businesses are able to flourish and to participate fully in our procurement activities, our green procurement practices and our green supply chains. These are objectives of our procurement—

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Drouin

I'm sorry, Minister Duclos. I have to jump in here. The time is over.

I see that Mr. Kitchen, the chair, is back. I told you that I was here not for a long time but for a good time.

Mr. Chair, we are at Madam Chabot from the Bloc Québécois. If you are ready, I will cede the chair back to you.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)) Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Mr. Drouin. Thank you for doing an excellent job. I appreciate that.

We will now go to Madam Chabot. I believe it's for six minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. President of the Treasury Board.

It's a real pleasure for me to be sitting in today for someone else on your committee. This is very interesting.

Mr. President of the Treasury Board, we have regularly reconsidered the Davie shipyard question. As you know, that company is a major part of a naval strategy, but it's often absent from government directions.

My question is quite simple. When will we get confirmation that the Davie shipyard is officially—and I emphasize the word "officially"—to become a naval strategy partner?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you for that question, Ms. Chabot. We're very pleased to see you with us today.

My answer is that I'm facing two major challenges.

First, this obviously isn't the Treasury Board Secretariat's responsibility, but rather that of Public Services and Procurement Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Department of National Defence. In other words, it's not my file.

Second, I'd be very pleased to discuss the Davie shipyard with you and to tell you about the extraordinary progress we've made for it and its 1,000 suppliers since 2015. I know this because my riding is situated just across the river from Davie. Every time I go for a walk, I see the shipyard and talk to the workers. Thousands of Davie employees and those of its suppliers are undergoing a major transformation. We're going to build a major marine hub in Quebec and across the country through investments made for Chantier Davie.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Duclos. So you don't have an answer to my question.

However, what costs do you think will result from the many delays in the naval strategy? Have you estimated those costs?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

Those costs are obviously public. For specific details and information, you'll have to contact Public Services and Procurement Canada or Fisheries and Oceans Canada regarding icebreakers.

If you insist, Ms. Chabot, I could tell you at length…

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Mr. Duclos, may I remind you that I'm happy to continue discussing this with you.

Now I'm going to talk about Phoenix.

Phoenix has been the central issue for our fellow citizens since we took up our duties as members. The compensation granted under the agreements was subjected to tax. The employees' union accuses you of not forwarding the necessary documents to the Canada Revenue Agency to prevent employees' compensation from being taxed. Why haven't you done that? How much money do you expect to recover by taxing that compensation?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

Once again, thank you for that question, Ms. Chabot.

It's important for you to be aware of two significant points about Phoenix.

The first one, which you should absolutely keep in mind and repeat whenever possible, is that it's unacceptable for workers not to be paid properly and on time for services rendered, particularly within the Canadian government. That's why we've been working hard for several years to correct this situation with the help of certain members of your committee.

Second, those delays and payment improprieties caused economic, personal and emotional harm, including stress and anxiety. Consequently, it was essential that we work with the unions, as we did, to pay compensation. We're in the process of paying that compensation to employees, including former public service employees, who suffered harm caused by the Phoenix system.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

We know that compensation is partly intended to address moral injury. We still don't understand why those amounts are being taxed.

How much money do you expect to recover by taxing the compensation payable under those agreements?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

You'll have to contact the Canada Revenue Agency regarding the tax treatment of that compensation. You may also refer to clause 18 of the agreement signed with the public service unions for the information the Canada Revenue Agency used to reach its decision. It was made public some time ago.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

So that wouldn't be because you didn't forward the documents.

I'd like to ask you a question I hope you can answer. How much money will be spent to replace Phoenix? How much is it costing to stabilize Phoenix?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

I'll ask Ms. Cahill, who is our expert at the Treasury Board Secretariat, to give you the most up-to-date details on that.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Do you think the costs are high?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Jean-Yves Duclos

I know you'd like an exact answer, and that's why I'm asking Karen Cahill to speak briefly.

4:35 p.m.

Karen Cahill Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you very much for that question.

Yes, in recent years, the Treasury Board Secretariat has obtained funding to stabilize the Phoenix system. To date, we have received $30 million over a number of years. However, the expenses are clearly reported in the Public Accounts of Canada. So I would suggest you consult them for the exact expenses incurred to stabilize the Phoenix pay system.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Ms. Cahill. That brings us to the end of our six minutes.

We will now go to Mr. Green for six minutes.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you.

My constituents in Hamilton Centre are paying very close attention to the ongoing proceedings as they relate to residential schools and the responsibilities of Crown-Indigenous Relations to indigenous and first nations communities across the country.

I note that Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs is requesting $610 million under vote 1a for the Federal Indian Day Schools Settlement Agreement, which includes compensation for persons who attended a federally established, funded, controlled and operated Indian day school during the period from January 1, 1920, until its closure or transfer from Canada's control.

Mr. Chair, through you, how many people do you expect to be compensated through the Federal Indian Day Schools Settlement Agreement?