Government Operations Committee on June 10th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

I call the meeting to order.

Thank you everybody for being here. We're starting as quickly as we can.

I would like to welcome everyone to meeting number 25 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Today, we will continue our study on the subject matter of supplementary estimates (A), 2022-23. During the second hour of the meeting, we will begin consideration of the interim report regarding our study on air defence procurement projects and our study of the national shipbuilding strategy.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in the room in person and remotely via Zoom. I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots and taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Recognizing the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, the following is recommended.

If you have symptoms, participate by Zoom, as opposed to being here in person. Those that are here in person should keep a two-metre distance wherever possible. Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended, in the strongest possible terms, that members wear their masks at all times. These are things I've told you all before, so I know you're all aware of that. As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting.

I would like to welcome Minister Tassi today. I would like to offer her an opportunity to offer her opening statements.

Minister, please proceed.

[The Honourable Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Filomena Tassi]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, committee members and guests. It's nice to see you this afternoon.

Let me begin by acknowledging that I'm participating from Hamilton, my hometown, which is situated on the traditional territory of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinabe peoples.

With me today is the president of Shared Services Canada, Sony Perron; Patrice Nadeau, assistant deputy minister of networks and security services; and Samantha Hazen, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer. Also with me from PSPC are my deputy minister, Paul Thompson; and Wojo Zielonka, the chief financial officer.

I'm pleased to be here with you as minister responsible for Shared Services Canada to discuss the organization's supplementary estimates (A). Shared Services Canada, or SSC, is responsible for equipping public servants with the secure and reliable information technology infrastructure they need to support government operations. The work done at SSC also ensures that we can deliver digital programs and services to Canadians that are secure, reliable and easy to use from anywhere.

To support digital government, we need a high-performing and resilient enterprise network. That means moving away from individual department networks to a modern government-wide network. Shared Services Canada is responsible for managing the security and network infrastructure for its partner departments and clients. SSC is also responsible for securing the network perimeter and managing the government's secret infrastructure—50 networks enabling digital communications for about 400,000 users nationally and internationally.

SSC operates 336 data centres, including four enterprise data centres that provide secure, reliable hosting services for Government of Canada applications and data. To ensure the safety and security of Canadians' data and the services provided by the Government of Canada, the information technology infrastructure must be safe from vulnerabilities and able to swiftly and effectively respond to cybersecurity attacks. We take cybersecurity very seriously. Cybersecurity is a shared responsibility among Shared Services Canada, the Communications Security Establishment, referred to as CSE, and the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Shared Services Canada is an integral part of the cybersecurity tripartite. On any given day the defensive cyber-system of the Canadian centre for cybersecurity, a division of CSE, can block anywhere from three billion to as many as seven billion actions targeting Government of Canada networks. When it comes to government IT solutions, our government is looking for greater flexibility, mobility and efficiency. That means developing networks that are accessible any time, anywhere, by anyone on a trusted and secure platform.

With this in mind, SSC is providing the key building blocks for the adoption of cloud computing. Moving government services and operations to cloud-based services and cross-government data centres will reduce the risk of major IT failure, as well as ensuring safe and efficient services. The improved efficiencies will save taxpayer money as well as reduce the Government of Canada's carbon footprint. When it comes to directing the traffic on the network itself, SSC is looking to use software-defined networking technology as well as artificial intelligence to get better network performance and monitoring.

To support these key network modernization activities, SSC is requesting, through supplementary estimates (A), an increase to the reference levels by $86 million for a total of $2.7 billion. SSC will invest this additional funding in information technology services so that the Government of Canada can leverage new technologies and approaches to security for continued support to existing as well as new government programs and services for Canadians.

Thank you again for the invitation to join you today. I am pleased to answer questions related to the supplementary estimates (A) for Shared Services Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go into questions, and we will start with Mr. McCauley for six minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, thanks for joining us today, along with your colleagues.

I want to start with some of the issues you brought up on the committee of the whole about contracts for companies that are linked to forced labour in China. There are a couple of them, and these are actual contracts that had been granted by the government through Shared Services. We found them through the proactive disclosure—Toshiba, for example, HP, Hitachi.

What is the government doing to end contracts with companies that are linked to using forced labour in China? This is information that comes directly from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, so this is public information.

What are we doing to end this?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thanks for that question. It's an important question. I want to assure you that our government is taking action in this regard.

As you know, four ministers have mandates with respect to the eradication of forced labour in supply chains and eradicating forced labour. With respect to—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry, Minister. Let me interrupt you—

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Yes, MP McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I appreciate that, and I'm aware of that. We started this a couple of years ago with our very weak rules, but these are companies that have been publicly identified. What are we doing to end the contracting of these companies?

It's not enough for us to just read off from a booklet of our rules that don't seem to be working. These are companies that are using forced labour. It's been identified by our allies, yet we are granting them contracts. What are we concretely doing to end this practice?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

First of all, I was delighted to see that there was unanimous support for Bill S-211.

With respect to the actions that we have taken, PSPC has actually taken action in this regard, as I did outline in committee of the whole. We have a code of conduct now that applies with respect to procurement. We have contracts that have clauses in there that require that the provider of the goods are not involved in any way with forced labour involvement. Those are in contracts—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, let me interrupt you again.

These companies are clearly identified by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. These aren't just pulled out of the air. Will you say today that we will not continue to procure items, as Shared Services has, from the companies identified by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

What I will say is that we take forced labour allegations very seriously.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If you were taking them seriously, you'd put this into practice, Minister.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

When in fact those allegations are made, there are due diligence investigations to determine whether in fact there is forced labour taking place. We are going to continue to work very hard to eradicate forced labour from our supply chains. We did expand the CUSMA obligations to all imports that are coming in.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm going to reclaim my time, please, Minister—

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

There's absolutely work that we have done, but I will say that we look forward to doing more. More does need to be done. I think that's the point you're making, and I would agree with that. More work needs to be done.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, what I'm trying to get at is that I've identified companies that are knowingly using supply chains...or directly using forced labour. I'm not asking for “we'll work harder on it”. These are companies identified publicly. Will your department commit today to end the purchases from these?

As a follow-up question, we've given a million dollars in contracts to Lenovo, formerly owned by IBM and now owned out of China. The U.S. defence department has stated that they are considered a major security risk, but Shared Services is buying equipment from them. Will you commit to having Shared Services end the purchases from companies identified by our allies, the U.S. defence department, as security risks?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Again, MP McCauley, we take the allegations of forced labour very seriously.

I would like to turn it over to my officials to say what they implement when in fact those allegations are made. If allegations are made and warranted, then of course we follow up with those and pursue them to ensure that we will eradicate forced labour from the supply chain. I'm happy to be working with the Minister of Labour in this regard.

I would turn it over to my officials, because you're making direct accusations with respect to contracts. I think it's important that they provide input with respect to the contracts you're mentioning.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm going to interrupt you there. These are not accusations. These come straight from proactive disclosure from the PSPC website. These are not accusations. It's offensive that you would try to push such a serious issue away as an accusation. These come straight from your department's website.

Before we go to any witnesses, I would like to hear what they are going to do physically, and if they will investigate, look at the simple website of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and at the companies named using forced labour or Uighur labour, and end the practice of sending taxpayers' money to companies that are doing this reprehensible practice.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Before going over to my officials, let me just clarify that when I'm saying “accusations”, I'm saying that you're making the accusation that there is forced labour in the contracts we have.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I was referring specifically to Lenovo.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

That's the part where I was saying that there are accusations.

Let me transfer it over to my officials to give specifics with respect to the information they have received in this regard. I know that, when those accusations are made, we take it very seriously. I want to assure you that our government is committed to eradicating forced labour in our labour chains.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister.

Unfortunately, we're out of time. If your officials would be able to provide that in writing to committee and send that to the clerk, we will distribute that to the members.

We will now go to Mr. Jowhari for six minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister, and thank you for joining us today, along with your officials.

Minister, I'm going to focus my questions for you on the topic you highlighted in your opening remarks around cybersecurity. My understanding is that Shared Services Canada has to work hand in glove with the Communications Security Establishment and the Department of National Defence to ensure that the Government of Canada's networks are secure and protected against increasingly malicious and frequent cyber-threats.

Can you kindly clarify the role of SSC in the Government of Canada's effort to ensure that our cyber-defence is secure?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thank you, MP Jowhari.

Let me begin by saying that Shared Services Canada works to keep our networks safe, secure and accessible for Canadians. SSC supports the effective design, delivery and management of priority IT security initiatives affecting government systems and government-wide operations. Cybersecurity is, of course, a shared responsibility. It's a tripartite responsibility or arrangement between Shared Services Canada, the Communications Security Establishment and the Treasury Board Secretariat.

SSC continuously works to enhance the cybersecurity of Government of Canada digital assets by preparing for all types of cybersecurity incidents and for responses to threats. SSC is constantly working alongside its partners, including the Canadian centre for cybersecurity, to identify potential vulnerabilities and enhance protective measures. When a cybersecurity issue arises, SSC and its partners coordinate to determine root causes, limit impact and undertake recovery.

We know this is an important area. There is gaining expertise in terms of those who are hacking and getting into systems, so Shared Services Canada is working very hard with its partners to ensure that our systems are protected.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I'm going to move on to the digital privacy part of cybersecurity.

Minister, as you and I know, we live in an ever-growing digital world, where Canadians rely on digital services provided by their governments. Along with this reliance come concerns about the protection of privacy and increased cybersecurity challenges.

Can you please share with us what the government is doing to protect Canadians and their personal data? Further, can you tell us what impact investment in cyber-defence at SSC will have in the future?