Evidence of meeting #46 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christine MacIntyre  Deputy Secretary, Policy, Program and Protocol Branch, Office of the Secretary to the Governor General
Stewart Wheeler  Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Melanie Kwong  Director General, Major Events, Commemorations and Capital Experience, Department of Canadian Heritage
Eric Kenny  Commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, Department of National Defence
Commissioner Michael Duheme  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

11:50 a.m.

LGen Eric Kenny

It was that—

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

If you had the invoices previous to your first committee testimony, why did you not provide those invoices to the committee, so the committee would have had the benefit of them? Why did you believe it was okay that the Canadian Taxpayers Federation received them before parliamentarians did?

11:50 a.m.

LGen Eric Kenny

Thank you for the question.

At that committee, we were asked to provide that information on notice, which we did provide last month, for the committee to review. It had been previously subject to an ATIP as well, as you mentioned.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I am asking if maybe somebody else can give a better answer to this. We have multiple departments here. I am sure all of you were equally embarrassed to see the information that you came to testify about in detail in the press with the information you couldn't provide to parliamentarians.

Has there been some accountability? Has there been some discussion between departments to go back to National Defence and ask them why this happened?

Mr. Wheeler, could you perhaps expand on that?

11:50 a.m.

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

We endeavour at all times when access to information material is being provided to requesters, whoever they may be, to fulfill the responsibilities under the Access to Information Act. When it's possible we do make efforts to consult among departments that are affected by, or have been involved in, events that are being referred to in an access to information request. As you will have seen, the invoices that were released under that access to information request were only part of the larger production of papers that the committee requested. As the committee was very generous with us in allowing us additional time for translation, because of the volume of detailed invoices, I think it's quite understandable that the details of all those invoices that later were released would not have been at any of our fingertips on the 22nd of September.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I'll go to another question.

I believe it is unfortunate, when parliamentarians ask departments to come to answer very specific questions about a Governor General's trip, that there is information out there being provided to a third party before it's provided to the parliamentary committee that is asking for it. I don't think that's okay.

I'd like to come back to your comment, Mr. Wheeler, that now in the main cabin the menu is “as is”.

Does the main cabin mean everybody on the plane, or is there a first-class cabin that would have a different meal plan?

11:50 a.m.

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

In fact, the main cabin referred to the majority of the people travelling on the plane. There is a cabin in the front of the plane where the Governor General or the dignitary being transported and their family members may be seated. With the procedures that we've set in place, we'll choose off the menu standard options. We will choose them based on cost and ensuring that we are meeting the dietary restrictions of principals and any passengers who we see having indicated. There will be a choice between two standard menu items for the principal passenger. Beyond that cabin, there will not be choice.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I'm—

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm sorry, Mr. Housefather. We'll have to come back to you.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

No worries. I'm flabbergasted.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I think we share some of that, Mr. Housefather.

As we've done recently, I'm going to combine, if the committee is fine with it, the Bloc and NDP sessions into one five minute each.

You're up, Ms. Vignola, for five minutes.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to preparations.

Did the 12 people who went to the Middle East fly with commercial airlines or did they have the same air service as the Governor General?

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

People on preparatory trips travel with standard commercial airlines and follow all Treasury Board guidelines.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Do they fly business class or economy?

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

Based on the trip and travel, we follow Treasury Board guidelines.

In some cases, if the trip takes a certain number of hours and it's necessary for them to work upon arrival, people may travel in business class.

It's not always the case, however. It depends on ticket availability.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

With respect to this particular trip in December 2021, was it business class or economy?

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

For the longer legs of the trip, such as Toronto-Qatar, people would normally have travelled in business class.

I can't speak for some of the people who are not from my office.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

When we met in November, we talked about a working group created to reduce travel costs for the Governor General. I mentioned to you that it wasn't the first time the newspapers have reported surprising travel expenses for a Governor General. I told you I was disappointed a working group like this had not been set up long before that, so it would already be accustomed to watching expenses today.

How many times has the working group met since it was established?

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

Thank you for your question. That is now an important part of what we do.

The working group met several times during the summer before our appearance in September, to look at factors, among other things. After that, I couldn't tell you how many times it's met specifically, but I'd say there were dozens of meetings.

The general and I met with the group to have them present us with options, so that we could then approve the list of cost-saving measures I mentioned earlier.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

At the end of the day, which office is responsible for ensuring travel expenses are acceptable and reasonable? Is there a process for the flight attendant to say, maybe we don't need to serve Beef Wellington? Beef Wellington is far from ordinary. I've never had it myself, and I don't think it's the most popular evening meal for Canadians.

Is there anyone who can say, this makes no sense and we need to serve something else?

11:55 a.m.

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

Thanks for that question, because it gets to the heart of what we were talking about today and before today.

We want all of our team members who work together to be prepared to ask questions, so that such exorbitant costs are systematically reported in every area.

At the end of the day, as chief of protocol, I'm responsible for sound management of the funds allocated to us to fulfill our mandate. In other departments, managers would have that responsibility.

Noon

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I'm going to ask you a very tough question: Quite frankly, if this hadn't come out in the media, would we be meeting today and would there be a review process?

As I said, this isn't the first time a Governor General's expenses have been called into question. If it hadn't made such big waves, would there really be a process under way?

Noon

Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stewart Wheeler

The important thing is that we all have a duty as public servants to ensure sound and transparent management of public funds. When we take on a new position and manage budgets, it's incumbent upon all of us to do that review. Yes, I would hope that we would have identified such exorbitant costs without them being brought to our attention, and that we would have taken appropriate steps.

Noon

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you.

Ms. MacIntyre, when we saw each other—

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Ms. Vignola.

We will move on to Mr. Johns, please, for five minutes.