Government Operations Committee on May 8th, 2023

[Yves Giroux]

I think it will be challenging to determine the portion of it that will go to specific areas, including mental health, because when it comes to funding for health issues, it's very difficult to follow the money. Money is fungible in an area of need such as health care, where there are billions of dollars spent in every jurisdiction, so it will be very difficult to determine the proportion of the $25 billion going to mental health.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

This year, the Treasury Board Secretariat plans to implement the 2022-24 national action plan on open government and publish new datasets to the open government portal, “including those that Canadians specifically request”. Which datasets would you recommend adding to the open government portal?

We heard during the McKinsey study, especially from Sean Boots, that public contract data is particularly lacking. What info and datasets need to be added to the open government portal to allow effective oversight of whether procurement regulations are being followed and an evaluation of contract value for money? Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Yves Giroux]

If you ask me what types of data should be made available on the open government portal, we could be here for a long time. I would probably say it should be the opposite: What data should not be there? I think there is a good case to be made for limiting the information that's not publicly available to what's commercially sensitive, cabinet confidences or solicitor-client privilege, but it should be open by default. I think that would relieve a lot of the pressure that's put on access to information shops in the government and it would simplify many people's lives.

So what type of data? I think it should be the vast majority of data held by government departments and institutions.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I've asked you this before. The UN special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights discussed privatization as a cause of poverty, even while privatization costs government more. We're seeing it here today.

Do you have any comments on that? How much money is going to commissions, to subbing out and to profit, for these large consulting companies?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Unfortunately, that's our five minutes.

Maybe you can get back to us as you commonly do, Mr. Giroux, on that question.

We have Mrs. Kusie for five minutes, and then Ms. Thompson for five.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Monsieur Giroux, I'm wondering if you could tell the committee the amount of carbon tax collected for GST and HST. Would you have that number with you, the revenue that is received from GST and HST that is the carbon tax?

[Yves Giroux]

I can certainly get back to the committee with that information.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, thank you.

You talked about open government, but you also stated in your “Issues for Parliamentarians” report that you recommend that Parliament consider adopting a new legislative or administrative framework to improve transparency and comprehensibility for parliamentarians and the public.

What are your primary concerns with the current policies?

[Yves Giroux]

My main concerns relate to the fact that, for parliamentarians and Canadians who have an interest in budget making, the main estimates are tabled before the budget, so the mains do not include any budgetary initiatives. You're asked as parliamentarians to review the main estimates and approve them. Then the budget comes along with new initiatives in the budget that are not in the mains, so it's a bit confusing.

Here we are on May 8. The budget was tabled at the end of March, but nowhere in the main estimates are budget items, so these will find their way into supplementary estimates (A), (B) or maybe even (C). It makes it very difficult for parliamentarians to figure out where the budget initiatives are in these appropriation bills that you are asked to approve. That is my main concern.

Similarly, departmental plans do not include any of the budget initiatives. You have these instruments, these pieces of information, that don't include budget initiatives, so it's a bit confusing, to say the least, for anybody—even people who are very studious and try to make sense of all these documents—to follow the money and follow it appropriately.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Why do you think the current framework exists, if there are so many challenges in interpreting it?

[Yves Giroux]

It serves a couple of people very well. The current timeline for tabling the budget gives a lot of flexibility to the government and to the Minister of Finance to table a budget when they are ready and when it suits them, whereas a fixed tabling date for a budget or a shorter window, an earlier window, would force the government to table its budget at a time that may not be convenient or at a time when there are still lots of unknowns when it comes to the specific decisions that the government has not yet made.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

In the 2022 fall economic statement, the government put aside $8.5 billion in additional spending over 2022-23 to 2027-28 for any anticipated near-term pressures. I think you addressed this a little bit in one of my previous rounds. What pressures do you or the government expect to materialize in the near term?

[Yves Giroux]

I can't speak for the government. We asked what these items were for, and we were referred back to the explanation in the fall economic statement.

It could be a number of things. It could be pressures to spend more on health care. Maybe that was what they were referring to. It could also be additional spending on national defence issues. It could also be assistance to Volkswagen. They were in discussions with the company, and they knew that it was going to be somewhat expensive, so they set aside some money. It can be a number of things, but without having the details, it's very difficult to determine exactly what it was and whether some of these pressures have, indeed, materialized or have gone away.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

The government plans to realign previously announced spending. Are the details of that reallocation included in the budget?

[Yves Giroux]

There were no details except for the 15% reduction in consulting services and travel. There were no details, not yet at least, in the budget that I am aware of. We have asked that question, and we were not successful in getting more information than what was in the budget.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Are you—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much. That is our time.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much. My apologies, I thought I had more time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Thompson, you have the floor.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I'll just go back for a moment to the data piece around the federal spending on health care, to draw a link to the benefit of data, across the country, with which we are able to evaluate, first of all, how funding's allocated. For the first time, I understand, we're going to be able to ensure that mental health funding, for example, ends up in mental health services, primary health care and so on, to long-term care. It's also about the evaluation of the impact to health or health delivery.

We've also heard in this committee, through the outsourcing study, about the transformational work that is happening through many of those contracts around digitalizing government and about the obvious reality of what that's going to mean for service delivery. What does that strong data metric—the ability to do that analysis—mean for your reports?

[Yves Giroux]

I think it means that we are better able to provide analysis and information to parliamentarians that is impartial and also non-partisan. That's the usefulness of that type of data. It's essential.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you. I agree. I'm very much a data person.

I want to reference the automatic tax filing that was in the budget. For me, that was a real celebration. Again, it goes back to my work with people who really struggled to receive government supports because they had not filed income tax.

Do you see the PBO bringing a report to government on the impact of that service for persons on benefits?

[Yves Giroux]

That is certainly something that we could look at if there was a specific question or questions that this committee or another committee wanted us to look at when it comes to the benefits of auto-filing. I think the CRA itself would be in a very good position to do that. It can sometimes be a bit delicate for us to request and handle specific tax information. I don't see any big reason why the CRA itself would not be more than happy to provide that type of information.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I certainly see that as the ability to link people to government supports who are otherwise not able to. There's the benefit to that in terms of cost savings. Obviously, we know that people entered the system in other, more expensive ways, generally through emergency supports.

I want to link back to the Canada health transfers. How will jurisdictions with older, less healthy populations in rural and remote areas fare compared to younger and more urban jurisdictions in terms of the transfers? Is there a precedent for transferring funds to provinces that's not just on a per capita basis?

[Yves Giroux]

It's quite well known that younger populations are less demanding on the health care system. To put it otherwise, they cost the public health care system less. As we get older, we tend to cost more in terms of health care services. Provinces or regions with an older population tend to have greater public health care needs. Urban populations that are younger have different challenges, but generally speaking, they tend to need less in terms of health care expenditures.

The Canada health transfer is a per capita transfer that is equal. It does not take into account the differences in demographics across provinces. Provinces receive the same amount per capita, be they older or younger on average. It does not take into consideration the differences in the composition of populations.