Evidence of meeting #3 for Subcommittee on Sports-Related Concussions in Canada in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hockey.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East—Cooksville, Lib.)
Anne Phair  As an Individual
Matthew Chiarotto  As an Individual
Kathy Leeder  As an Individual
Ash Kolstad  As an Individual
Doug Eyolfson  Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.
Carter Phair  As an Individual
Robert Kitchen  Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC
Cheryl Hardcastle  Windsor—Tecumseh, NDP
Mona Fortier  Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.
Darren Fisher  Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, Lib.

5:40 p.m.

The Chair Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East—Cooksville, Lib.)

Welcome, everybody.

This is our second meeting with witnesses of our subcommittee on sport-related concussions.

In our inaugural meeting, we heard from the Honourable Ken Dryden, who wrote a book on concussions called Game Change. We also had the opportunity to hear from some very courageous witnesses who shared their stories about living with concussions and what that's meant to them and to their parents and families.

The members had excellent questions, and I'm sure we will have excellent questions today. Members come from all parts of Canada, from rural and urban ridings. I want to hear from the witnesses so that we can get a clear perspective of what it's like to live with concussion, through concussion, and how we can create more opportunities to have safer playing fields for our athletes.

At these committee hearings, we want to make sure that parents with minor children understand that these meetings are being televised, that this meeting can be broadcast in part or in its entirety, and that the names of the children will be published in the House of Commons publications. Do we have the consent of parents for that?

Thank you very much.

Without further delay, I'll start with those on video conference, just in case we lose the feed. We want to ensure that we can get their testimony in. We have Carter Phair and Anne Phair on video conference. They're coming from two different locations.

Ms. Phair, the floor is yours.

5:40 p.m.

Anne Phair As an Individual

Thanks.

I'm not 100% sure about when the very first one occurred, but I know that over the last three years, my son Carter has been diagnosed with a concussion no fewer than six times, all while playing junior hockey. His symptoms have been varied, some short-lived, some longer lasting, some mild and some severe. All of them worrisome for his father and me.

Perhaps the most worrisome are the ones that were not diagnosed by a doctor or a trainer. I have no idea how many that could be, but looking back I know there were signs. The word “concussion” simply never came to mind. That is why I'm honoured to be a witness at your committee on concussions in sports. I hope to encourage our federal government to pass legislation similar to Rowan's Law, which was recently passed in Ontario.

In reading about Rowan's Law and how it came about, I learned that Rowan Stringer had suspected that she had sustained a concussion prior to the game that ended her life. She had in fact read about concussions online shortly before her death. My son is a goalie and moved away from home to play hockey during his 15th year. For much of the next two seasons, he complained about headaches, but to me, that was all they were: headaches.

We had always tried to buy him the best equipment, mask included. His was top of the line with an NHL-grade sticker on it and it cost a $1,000. I believed he was protected. After all, it cost a $1,000. But the complaints kept coming. He would take a shot off the mask in practice and get a headache. We were not aware enough to put two and two together. Other players on his team were diagnosed with concussions and would have to sit out a couple of days or weeks. Never Carter. He was the goalie and the best protected. How could he get hurt?

In the fall of 2015, as a 17-year-old, Carter was playing with the Edmonton Oil Kings in an exhibition game. He'd been given a mask painted in team colours to use that night. I sent a picture of it to you. He wasn't allowed to practise in it. He couldn't see so he had to flip it up. He's a quiet kid, so rather than say something to a team official, he simply pushed it up on his head a bit in order to see through the bars.

Soon after coming into the game, he was hit in the mask with a shot. He had a headache after the game, but thinking that if he reported his headache he'd be cut and sent back to his Junior A team, he didn't say anything to the trainer. Later in the week, he was using his own mask at practice and was hit in the mask again. The next thing he remembers was coming to on the bench. This would be his first diagnosed concussion.

For the rest of that season, he played without incident with the same model mask he had used since he was 14. In the fall, as an 18-year-old, he was practising with Kamloops Blazers on a road trip. A puck struck him in the head and he was diagnosed with his second concussion. He then had to endure three days of bus travel, which made his symptoms worse. This time, the trainer looked at his mask and told him he should not have been using it at a level higher than Bantam. I was sick. My job as a mother is to protect my children and I didn't know enough about goalie masks to make sure he was wearing one that would do the job. I believed that the $1,000 price tag was evidence that this helmet would be adequate. Not true.

When Carter was cleared to play again, the word was out: Hit him in the head and he'll miss a couple of weeks. That happened three times before the end of the year, and opponents were suspended by the league for three, seven, and eight games in separate incidents. Keep in mind, you don't get suspended for hitting a goalie in the mask with a puck, but you do get suspended for body-checking his head into his posts, recklessly body-checking him after he deflects your shot to the corner, or for skating full speed from your own blue line and putting your knee into the side of his head after he's covered the puck.

After the last of those three, it was almost four months before he could work out again. He required reading glasses as he had lost some of his vision. He had headaches every day, poor concentration, sleeplessness, and he was unable to do many of the activities he loved, like golf.

Carter was stubborn and determined, though. He talked us into letting him play again. After a stellar start as a 19-year-old and winning goalie-of-the-month honours, he was playing in a game against the same team that had ended his previous season. Less than two months into the schedule, a second consecutive season ended with a knee to the head. This time, there were two suspensions, six games for the player and three for the coach, who, according to one of his former players, had a “hit list” of players upon whom he encouraged his team to take extra liberties.

Do not think for a second that we don't understand and accept that concussions are a part of contact sports such as hockey. They are going to happen. My biggest issue is that there are so many people who know so little about concussions and who in turn have at times seemed to encourage a lack respect for the health of the opposing athletes. These players—and sometimes their coaches—are willing to cause concussions intentionally in order to gain an advantage for their team.

Therefore, it is my opinion that anyone who coaches a sport where violent collisions occur should have as a minimum mandatory part of their coaching training an in-depth tutorial, taken repeatedly as new information becomes available. That tutorial needs to include recognition, prevention, treatment and possible future effects of concussions. This is a topic that must not be glossed over. Concussions need to be made as ugly as possible so that coaches will instill in their players respect for their opponents' health.

This brings me to my next point: respect for opponents. Too many times in an arena I hear bigger cheers for bodychecks than I hear for pretty goals or great saves. What message does a young player receive when highlight packages on TV show hits that cause injuries? The message is that if you can't get noticed for your skill, you can still get noticed if you cause some damage. This makes it extremely important for coaches to put a tremendous emphasis on skills development and team play, while holding accountable players who look to take advantage of those who may be smaller or in a vulnerable position. The coach's message needs to override the big cheers and TV highlights.

Failing that, teams need to hold their coaches responsible for their players' actions. While leagues do hand out suspensions, they're not seen as a deterrent. They need to make stricter rules to hold those players and coaches accountable. I think they need to include suspensions or fines to the team, the coach and the player when these serious safety rules are violated. The penalties must be stiff enough to bring about an actual change. The Saskatchewan Junior Hockey League handed out suspensions, but it wasn't enough to change the behaviour, as Carter received four diagnosed concussions from illegal hits in five months of play despite the suspensions handed out.

Finally, there needs to be an equipment standard that is known to buyers and checked by team officials. As parents, we go to the store and get recommendations from salesmen. We have to trust their educated or uneducated advice. There needs to be a comprehensive list of safety requirements for helmets that's readily available at stores and with the team trainers at all levels, especially at levels where collisions become more violent due to size, strength and speed. Also, helmets should be inspected for safety before an athlete is allowed to play.

In Carter's situation, the Edmonton Oil Kings, who have a paid trainer and equipment manager, should have told us about his inadequate helmet when he was drafted at the age of 14. Not only did they fail to inspect his helmet, but they gave him an improperly fitting helmet to wear during games. Money—ahead of safety—seems to be a key factor in decision-making. We trusted that the clubs Carter played with knew better. Had we known that his helmet was unfit for the level at which he was playing, we would have gladly spent the money to keep him safe.

While it would be preferable that there were no concussions, the fact is that there are. Carter finally received some meaningful treatment of his symptoms by visiting a clinic almost 2,000 kilometres away in Burnaby, B.C. Dr. Sigalet was able to identify a spot in Carter's neck that was not healing despite his being cleared to play by concussion protocol. Following his treatment, Carter regained his eyesight, he no longer has headaches, his grades in university have increased by 10%, he sleeps better and he's been able to resume most activities.

Canada has a lack of doctors trained in concussions. We were only able to locate five and had to travel to the Vancouver area or Toronto to get the treatment. With the research that is coming out daily on concussions, we need more specialized practitioners across the country. It is impossible for a general practitioner to keep up with the data, and Carter is proof that there is help if you know where to find it.

In closing, I'd like to thank you again for this opportunity. I truly believed that my son was going to accomplish big dreams in hockey, but now that he cannot continue for his own safety, I believe his story can make a difference in the lives of future hockey stars.

I'm so grateful that my son didn't have to die, like Rowan, to be able to tell his story and make a difference in the lives of others.

5:45 p.m.

Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East—Cooksville, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Ms. Phair, and thank you, Carter.

We're going to hear now from Matthew Chiarotto and Kathy Leeder, his mom.

5:50 p.m.

Matthew Chiarotto As an Individual

Thank you. Good evening and thank you for allowing me to share my story. My name is Matthew Chiarotto. I'm 13 years old and I live in Toronto.

I've loved hockey my whole life. I remember when I was five and my brother was four, we begged my mom to sign us up to play. We have been on the same team ever since, progressing from house league up to AA, in a non-contact competitive hockey league.

In October of 2015, I got my first concussion when I was 10. I was skating for the puck when someone hit me from behind and I flew into the boards and smashed my head on the ice. I started to feel nauseous and I saw stars. There was buzzing in my ears. I had a massive headache and my vision started to blur. The coaches helped me off the ice and escorted me to the dressing room. My words didn't make sense and I was very confused. I had never had anything happen to me like this before and I was very scared. My recovery was very long, frustrating and really boring. I felt like a caged animal. I couldn't do anything that I liked to do—no video games, school work or even playing with my friends. I couldn't even watch TV. It seemed to go on forever. The symptoms slowly went away, then everything was fine and I got my life back. I returned to playing hockey six weeks after sustaining the concussion.

Then I found out about an opportunity to do a video series on concussions with the GTHL, the Greater Toronto Hockey League. I auditioned and ended up being the spokesperson for the new concussion protocol that was being put in place by the GTHL and Holland Bloorview Kids Rehabilitation Hospital. I wanted to do it because I didn't want people to go through the same thing I did. I wanted to spread awareness, so that if kids got hurt, they could get the right information to recover properly. As the junior reporter, I interviewed kids, coaches, a few professional athletes and even Don Cherry, which was super fun!

In January of 2017, I was on the receiving end of someone's shoulder. It was during a rough game, where coaches were being thrown out and parents were banging on the glass and screaming. It was a dangerous game that should have been stopped. This time when I got hit, I knew immediately that it was a concussion. I had the same symptoms as last time: headache, nausea, blurry vision, etc. It wasn't until a couple days later that we discovered that I couldn't read, which was very frightening. My recovery was very long, but I had more knowledge and insight into concussions, so I knew how to deal with it. This concussion lasted four weeks.

I had to make the tough decision. I decided to retire from hockey. The decision was difficult because hockey had been my passion and I was really good at it. The game was special for our family because my brother and I had always played on the same team. I really enjoyed the game, the competition and the social elements that it brought to my life. While it may have been a tough decision not to return to hockey, it was the right decision for me and my brain.

By relating my hockey experiences to this subcommittee, my hope is to prevent concussions in other young hockey players, so that they can continue to enjoy this great game.

That's my story so far.

Thank you.

5:50 p.m.

Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East—Cooksville, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Matthew.

5:50 p.m.

Kathy Leeder As an Individual

My name is Kathy Leeder, and Matthew is my son. He suffered two concussions playing hockey. I feel really lucky that Matthew and his brain have fully recovered and that he does not have residual concussion symptoms. I'm also sad that he no longer plays a sport that he loves. Today he is a well-rounded person, student and athlete participating in tennis, golf, basketball and swimming, but protecting his brain is always on our mind and his.

I was at the game when Matthew was first injured. I didn't see the hit, but the reaction of the crowd followed by silence made me aware that a player was hurt. Within a fraction of a second, I was able to determine that it was Matthew, because I did not see number 15 on the bench. The coaching staff helped Matthew off the ice, and I was desperate to scale the glass and claw my way through the mesh at the top.

I do not remember getting to dressing room. I do remember seeing Matthew holding his head and crying. He looked up and urgently tried to tell me something, but I couldn't understand because his words did not make sense. They were gibberish. The game kept going, but Matthew's would be paused for the next six weeks.

In any hockey arena, you will find physician parents always willing to lend a hand, as was the case that evening, and I heard, “Don't waste your time in the ER. Make sure you wake him up every hour. If he starts vomiting, and his pupils are shot, he might have a brain bleed. He'll be fine in the morning. He didn't lose consciousness, he just got clocked.”

The next few days we spent seeking medical help and searching the Internet for information surrounding concussions. Up until that point, we didn't know much about concussions except that they happen to other people, not our son.

My husband is a physician, and a colleague with experience in concussions diagnosed Matthew. We were told to keep him in low light with little activity until his symptoms went away. The feeling of helplessness was overwhelming. You couldn't use a medication, and a band-aid certainly was not going to help. The buzzing and pain in his head as well as the sensitivity to light and sound were too much for him to handle. He would feel better and then he would feel worse. He would sleep and then he would not.

His team moved on, but he stayed paused. He couldn't play, read, watch TV, study, listen or play music, use the PS4 or go outside. His brother thought he was faking, and that made him really mad, but he couldn't even beat him up. Finally, Matthew felt better. He was cleared to return to his life and the ice.

The opportunity he had as a junior reporter had us all learn about concussions and how injury was viewed in hockey. There are some common symptoms with a concussion, but everyone is different. Matthew spent the summer learning, interviewing and educating the league about concussions and the new protocol, trying to make a difference.

During that hockey season in January of 2017, two days after he turned 12, I saw Matthew hit in the head by the shoulder of another player just seconds before the final buzzer. The game ended, and I screamed as my son fell to the ice. The referees helped him to the dressing room, and I knew it wasn't good. The next day, Matthew was diagnosed with a concussion, and his life was paused again. This time we knew more. This time we had the resources of Holland Bloorview and their concussion centre to help us.

This concussion was similar but different than the last. There was buzzing in his ears, headache, nausea and fogginess, but something different. Matthew had lost the ability to read. “That wasn't on the list of symptoms”, I kept saying. He said he saw squiggly lines and dots, but that they didn't connect and they didn't make sense. I literally collapsed inside.

After speaking with the specialists, we found out that, while it was not on the list, Matthew's brain would probably heal if we just gave it time. Luckily a few days passed, and to our delight, he walked around reading everything in sight.

After four weeks, Matthew's symptoms abated and he felt better. He was cleared to return to his life, but this time with a twist. Matthew would not be returning to the ice. He had decided to retire. He tried to go to games to cheer his brother and his teammates on, but it was too emotionally painful.

Feeling sad but not defeated, I was proud to help Matthew make a video for parents and kids with helpful hints on how to recover from a concussion. Together, he and I have worked with different teams at Holland Bloorview to help parents, kids and health care providers understand this injury and its impacts on kids and families.

I had a suggestion or just a way of connecting what I would like to see happen.

In the workplace, we're required to provide safe work. We look at how work is done and design the job to ensure that the worker and the environment are safe. Personal protective equipment is to be considered the last line of defence or the last resort to ensure safety.

Hockey is a high-speed collision sport with lots of intensity, placing players at risk for injury. It's unnerving when parents and players are looking to helmets, mouthguards and special jerseys for protection from concussion. I think we should take a look at how we design the game, and how we play hockey. The culture needs to change.

When Matthew was a junior reporter, he developed a tag line for his videos. The tag line was, “Respect your sport, play smart, play safe”. Parents are key stakeholders who need to be engaged to make this a reality. They should be educated to ensure that the safety of their players are maintained so they can play another day.

What a shift, where parents would demand safety rather than more ice time, where there would be no badge of honour, to shake it off and take the next shift.

Thank you for listening.

5:55 p.m.

Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East—Cooksville, Lib.)

The Chair

Ms. Leeder, Matthew, thank you.

Now we're going to have an opportunity to hear from Ash Kolstad.

6 p.m.

Ash Kolstad As an Individual

Hi, everyone. My name is Ash Kolstad. I'm currently an undergraduate student in the faculty of kinesiology at the University of Calgary. I want to thank you for this great honour of being invited to speak about my experiences with concussions from sport.

In 2009, I was 12 years old and received two concussions while playing ice hockey at the peewee level. This was when bodychecking was allowed. I recovered quickly from the first concussion, after following the return-to-play protocols, but three weeks later I received a second concussion from an illegal bodycheck from behind, an elbow to my neck. This resulted in severe whiplash and concussion symptoms.

This bodycheck ended my hockey playing career and has changed my life ever since. The player who bodychecked me only received a two-minute penalty for elbowing, while over nine years later I'm still affected by post-concussive symptoms. These included being extremely sensitive to light, which caused me to wear sunglasses every day for four months, along with sound sensitivity. I suffered from severe dizziness and lack of balance that caused me to fall when I walked every three steps, so I had to be guided everywhere I went.

Also, I had a throbbing headache, which hasn't stopped for the past nine years. This headache makes concentrating very difficult for me, and caused me to miss the full grade 8 year of school. I would go days without sleep due to the headache, and then would finally just crash due to exhaustion. Even then, that would be a few hours at a time.

The injury changed me as a person, and I'm still not back to who I was before the injury. I used to be a fun, super-athletic and overall happy person, but I became a very sad and irritable person who suffers from depression and anxiety daily. Giving up ice hockey and not being able to be at school further precipitated my depression. Ice hockey was such a large part of my life, and it's where I met most of my friends. I would spend hours each week practising and working on my skills. Also, missing school for a full year was hard for me. I was an honours student and I really enjoyed learning and just having that routine in my life. That was extremely difficult.

That year my days were either spent being at appointments, doing rehabilitation exercises or staying in a dark room, trying to rest. I never thought I was going to get better. I was taking medications that weren't helping, and it seemed like none of my doctors and the other health professionals I was seeing knew why my symptoms weren't going away. However, after almost a year, the majority of my symptoms did go away. Symptoms I still suffer from include a constant headache, difficulties concentrating, anxiety and depression.

My experiences with concussions are interesting because, back then, there was a lack of knowledge and awareness of what a concussion was. The injury was thought of as just a bump on the head rather than what it actually is, a type of brain injury.

I heard many negative comments from other parents and kids in my community, suggesting that I was faking or milking the injury to gain attention. One of my coaches told my mom, “The hit wasn't that bad. He shouldn't still be hurt.” These resulted in our not wanting to be around the hockey community anymore, and these negative comments also led me to try to cope with my headaches by just trying to forget about it, not talking about it, just trying to move on.

A couple of years after the concussion I felt like I needed to be part of ice hockey again, and this was when I was fortunate to have opportunities to be an assistant coach on teams at various age levels. This broadened my perspective of the sport and how coaches and parents perceived and talked about injuries such as concussions. Looking back now, I think my concussions likely could have been prevented if stricter policies were in place to limit concussion risk.

Suffering this injury has led me to being part of concussion research that also broadens my knowledge about concussions and how they can be prevented and managed. I want to make a difference by advocating for more awareness and more knowledge about this injury so that no one has to go through what I have.

I would like to thank the sport injury prevention research centre and the integrated concussion research program at the University of Calgary, as well as my supervisors and mentors, Drs. Carolyn Emery, Keith Yeates, Kathryn Schneider, Tyler Cluff and Brent Hagel, for giving me opportunities to do concussion research and to advocate for improving the prevention and care of this potential life-changing injury. I also want to thank Mr. Ken Dryden, Chairman Fonseca, Mr. Adam Larouche, Minister Duncan and the rest of this subcommittee for inviting me to speak here today and for taking an interest in reducing concussion in sport.

Thank you.

6 p.m.

Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East—Cooksville, Lib.)

The Chair

Ash, thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for sharing your very personal and compelling stories. This takes us now to an opportunity for the members to ask you questions. We're going to be starting off with the Liberals. Dr. Doug Eyolfson, from the Winnipeg area, will be asking the first questions.

6:05 p.m.

Doug Eyolfson Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for testifying and for coming here today. This is very helpful, and I know it takes a lot of courage to describe these experiences because they are obviously very traumatic events in your lives.

Ms. Leeder, I want to start with you. I just want to clarify. You said that, after one of the concussions, you were told, “Don't waste your time in the emergency department.” Is that right?

6:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Kathy Leeder

It was just outside of the locker room, and everybody was giving me all kinds of advice about whether or not to go to the emergency room. It's a common thing: What should you do? When is it serious enough?

6:05 p.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Doug Eyolfson

Okay, was this advice from one of the coaches or...?

6:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Kathy Leeder

No. When an injury happens, everybody has their commentary—

6:05 p.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Doug Eyolfson

Oh, absolutely, yes.

6:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Kathy Leeder

—but it is a very real thing. When you end up as a family with a concussion, you become a resource for other families when it happens and you get phone calls from parents asking if they should take their child to the emergency room, but it was just more of a conversation at the time.

6:05 p.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Doug Eyolfson

Okay, thank you.

Carter, again, it sounds like there's a very troubling history in some of the things that were described here.

I just want to expand on something your mother was saying in her testimony, that there was a “hit list” from the other coach. Was that your understanding of what was going on?

6:05 p.m.

Carter Phair As an Individual

Yes. I was at the end of my 18-year-old year when I got taken out. The following year we had a guy on our team who was acquired from Kindersley, and he said that their head coach had a list of players he was okay with them taking extra liberties on.

6:05 p.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Doug Eyolfson

All right. I am so sorry to hear that. It is a horrible thing to find out that this kind of thing goes on.

We talk a lot about violence in sports and how some cultures will tolerate it. In the league that you were in, did it seem to be tolerated when there was violence going on or when there were obvious dirty hits and that sort of thing?

6:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Carter Phair

I don't know if it's tolerated. There are just some people who think it's okay.

6:05 p.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Doug Eyolfson

All right.

This is question I want to open up, and I'll ask everyone in turn about this.

One of the controversies that comes up in the media—it's talked about on the sports networks, and sportscasters will talk about this—is the issue of fighting in hockey. It's technically against the rules, but we also know that it's tolerated by the leagues. A lot of sportscasters say that it brings in such ratings that the leagues are just never going to get rid of the fighting in professional hockey.

I'm going to start with you, Carter. Do you know if that attitude in professional hockey was in any way colouring the judgment of people in hockey? Were people who were aspiring to go into pro hockey thinking this would be a part of their careers?

6:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Carter Phair

I don't think anyone really plays hockey to become a fighter. It's just how they make their living. Some guys aren't quite good enough skill-wise, so they learn to fight, and if they do that well, they can find a spot on teams at higher levels.

6:05 p.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Doug Eyolfson

Okay, thank you.

Ash, what is your opinion on that same question?

6:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Ash Kolstad

It's an interesting question, for sure. I think we need to remember that the NHL is a business for making money, and people enjoy watching fighting while they're at the games. The negative side of that is that it really makes an impression on the younger players, and so forth.

I think that when rules in younger leagues are allowed, such as all the bodychecking—just because that is what I know most—it sort of changes the mindset of the players. Rather than going for the puck, they're just going to make the hit, and then it turns into a competition between the friends of who can have the biggest hit and so forth.

6:05 p.m.

Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.

Doug Eyolfson

Matthew, what are your thoughts on that? In your league, what was the attitude towards the fighting you were seeing in pro hockey?

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Chiarotto

A lot of people would say, “Oh, wow! Did you see that fight last night?” It's not really a part of the game that I would say is enjoyable to watch. A lot of people enjoy it, but personally, my attitude towards fighting is that there are a lot of ways to get back at someone other than fighting them. You can strip the puck off of them or do a nice dangle and score. It's not really one of those things where you have to just shove the other person. There are a lot of other ways.