Health Committee on Nov. 27th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Welcome to the 125th meeting of the Standing Committee on Health.

This morning we have three sections of our committee meeting. In the first section, we're going to hear from our guest. I think his name is Mr. Webber. He's going to have a 10-minute opening statement, and then we'll have one round of questions. Then, we're going to suspend for a few moments and we're going to bring in the CRA officials. They're going to have a two-minute opening statement, and then we'll have questions. Then, we're going to suspend and do clause-by-clause.

We have quite a bit to do, although I think the amendments are pretty simple and shouldn't take too long.

I want to tell you a little story. Yesterday, I got a call from a man whose son was killed in a car accident in my riding. Because the system didn't work right, he was not able to donate his organs, and he should have been able to. He was 30 years old. He could have saved many lives and improved the lives of many people, but because the donation system didn't work right, nobody responded, and nobody did what they should have done or could have done in order to make good use of those organs from that donor. I just want to put that on the record for his sake. The father feels so bad that the son missed the opportunity to share.

I tell that story as an incentive for us to move forward, and now I turn the floor over to Mr. Webber.

Welcome, and congratulations.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you, Bill. I appreciate it.

I don't know if you recall, but a couple of years ago I was at this committee and I couldn't even speak because I had lost my voice. I'm getting there again, so it's bad timing, but I hope I can get through this.

Colleagues, it is my absolute pleasure to be here today to speak on my private member's bill, Bill C-316. Before I begin, I want to thank you all immensely for your unwavering support of this initiative. There is no question that we all share the common goal of improving our organ and tissue donation system here in Canada, so that Canadians no longer have to die awaiting a life-saving transplant.

As I have said before, this is not a political issue; this is a human issue, and our work on this issue is proof that when it really counts, we're able to leave our partisan stripes at the door. I also want to thank those who rose in the House to speak to this bill. I was moved by your kind words and your personal stories, and I think it's fair to say that many people had no idea how passionate we could all be about this issue.

Finally, I want to thank the analysts and the clerk for the work they have done on this issue. Your work on the committee report was excellent. You perfectly captured what we heard and what we want to see done, so I sincerely thank you.

As I mentioned in greater detail in my comments in the House during second reading, this bill would sensibly utilize the annual tax return process to allow Canadians to indicate their intention to consent to be organ donors. I have been afforded the opportunity to discuss my bill in greater detail with the Canada Revenue Agency, and I very much appreciate that collaborative gesture. I thank them for allowing time for me to meet with them.

This bill would enable the CRA to facilitate the registration of individuals with their respective provincial and territorial registries, but it will be the provinces and territories that will ultimately finalize the consent with those who wish to register.

This bill does not specify, at least at this point, the exact nature of the data collection process or the actual content that is to appear on the tax return. This bill is very narrowly focused on giving the CRA the legal exemption it requires to set up agreements with provincial and territorial partners, because existing legislation prohibits the use of tax returns for any purpose other than the collection of taxes, and of course allowing Elections Canada to pass on their information to them.

While I wanted to provide the CRA with a lot of working space and flexibility to implement the will of Parliament, I do have some concerns and I hope that we can put those to rest today when the CRA is up here and we're questioning them. I want to ensure that the CRA hears loud and clear that the expectation of Parliament is to have this addition made on the front page of the T1 tax returns in all provinces and territories. I also want it made clear that we expect people to have the option to tick a box on that front page—a call to action, if you will. We've all filled out forms before, and we know that unless there's a box to tick or a space to fill, we tend not to stop and read the fine print. We need to make sure that we have a front page that calls on tax filers to take a specific action to demonstrate their willingness to register.

I realize that the front page has very limited space, but it does have enough space to do what we all envision. In fact, the options I've offered would take less space than that afforded to Elections Canada on the front page. I think we can all agree that unless this initiative appears on the front page, we will lose a tremendous opportunity and dramatically reduce the impact of our work.

When it comes to the electronic filers, the e-filers, things should be quite simple, and of course the majority of Canadians, probably 90%, e-file. The CRA should make it a requirement of all tax software, which they certify annually, that the offer to consent appear prominently in the filing process. Based on residency, a tax filer should be afforded a secure connection to their own provincial or territorial registry to consent. A tax preparer should also have the option of requesting a consent package for those who are not physically filing their own return. We need to seize every opportunity to register as many as possible.

I should also mention here that I will be moving two minor amendments to my bill. These amendments are friendly amendments. They will simply change “organ donors” to “organ and tissue donors”. I believe, from my earlier discussions with colleagues and the chair, that this is not going to be an issue. We will ensure that we are not limiting ourselves from a legal perspective. I'll bring those motions forward during clause-by-clause.

I don't believe that we are intending any other amendments to the legislation, but I do welcome any that will help ensure we reach our goal to have more registered donors.

Of course, we will be hearing from the CRA officials, and I encourage my colleagues to implore a continued sense of urgency for implementation. It's always been my experience that a deadline focuses everyone and helps get the job done.

I believe that we could have this in place for the 2019 tax returns, but that would require everyone to continue pushing all involved in the process. This committee has shown its willingness to move quickly on the legislation, and I hope that those after us, meaning the CRA and of course the minister, are just as motivated to make this happen quickly, because once it leaves here, it's out of our hands.

We know that a Canadian dies almost every day awaiting a life-saving transplant. Every day sooner that we get this done means that we literally could save a life.

A while ago, the elections commissioner indicated to Parliament that if Parliament wanted to implement changes in time for the 2019 election, then legislation would have to be passed by a certain date. That was for changes to the elections laws. I would like to see the CRA provide a similar breakdown on their timelines to give us a sense of what needs to be done, and by when, for this to happen in 2019. This would be helpful for everyone in the process to have. It gives us a target to focus on.

Finally, I would like to thank the government. That doesn't happen too often. I would like to thank the government for committing the funding to this initiative in the fall economic update just last week. Governments don't often commit funding ahead of legislation passing, especially when it's from a private member's bill and, for that matter, an opposition private member's bill. The fact that this funding has been committed is very much appreciated by me, and it signifies an impressive willingness from the government to see this happen.

I have referred to this bill several times as “my bill”, as it stands in my name, but I do want to say that this is really our bill. This is our committee's bill, because we all worked together as a single team to make this a reality. We found a shared goal and a sensible solution, and we all worked together to make this happen.

I'm very proud of all of you who were here along this process with me. We are getting closer every day, but there still remains a lot of work ahead. I must be honest in saying that I am a bit concerned that we don't yet have a clear, unambiguous commitment on some important implementation aspects. Hopefully, we will deal with that today with the CRA. Nonetheless, we've gone a long way in a short amount of time, and I'm very proud of all you guys. I have to thank you all for the work you've done on this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you.

You have 12 seconds left.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

That's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thanks very much.

Now we'll go to our first round of questions.

We're going to go to Mr. Ayoub for seven minutes.

Your Worship, go ahead.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank my colleague, Mr. Webber. I would like to echo the positive comments regarding this bill, which, as has been said, transcends partisanship.

Mr. Webber, even though the bill hasn't been implemented yet, it's undoubtedly helping to save lives simply by encouraging discussion on organ and tissue donation. By discussing and promoting these issues, we're saving lives by providing information to people, who can then decide to register as organ donors. I would like to congratulate you once again. We now need to work hard to ensure that the bill is passed before the next general election.

I have before me an income tax form. My questions are relatively simple. If I understand correctly, and I would like you to confirm this, the Canada Revenue Agency will give the province the names of citizens who wish to become organ and tissue donors only if the province asks that the information be included in the federal income tax return. Is that the case?

In addition, since Quebec has two income tax returns, we must ask the province which of the two forms will be chosen. Have you had these types of discussions with the officials? What's the current situation?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Absolutely. I had a good meeting with the CRA. We discussed a lot of issues.

Just to be clear here, Mr. Chair, to have the CRA up here and to ask particular questions.... I think that's where most of the questioning should be going, although if you have questions for me, I'll be happy to answer them. If the CRA would like to come up here and answer those specific questions, I would like to hear what they have to say on this as well. They will be afforded the opportunity, I guess, once I'm finished here.

On specifics with regard to the provinces, yes, the CRA will have to go into negotiations or discussions with the provinces, and the provinces will have to indicate whether they're willing to be a part of the program.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I gather then we'll need to try to convince each province to include the notice in the tax return, since the Canada Revenue Agency isn't responsible for doing so from the outset. We can ask the officials questions later to ensure that these measures are taken.

I also have a question about the success of this approach. We now have an additional tool, which is very good. However, have we planned a way to measure the tool's success, which is the number of people who tick the box indicating that they want to be contacted to join a registry? Out of 100,000 people who agree to be contacted, maybe only 50,000 people will actually end up being contacted or registered. I think it would be worthwhile to obtain this type of information. The officials may be able to answer this question as well.

In addition, earlier, you quickly referred to the online tax return. By clicking on the tax return, will we be automatically redirected to the site of the province that has chosen to participate in the registry?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

With regard to online returns, that's what I understand as well. Again, the CRA can certainly answer that question.

By the way, I do my taxes old school, with a piece of paper. I fill it out and I send it away, so I'm not that familiar with how the electronic filing goes.

What I would like to envision there is that when you're online, there's a box there that asks, “Would you be interested in consenting to be an organ donor?”, and you click either “yes” or “no” there, and you send that off. It will go to the provinces' registries, and they would then pursue the legalities of getting you registered.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Webber, I want to use my remaining time to hear your more personal perspective on the process surrounding your private member's bill, the major steps of the process, and the general responses to the bill. How has everything proceeded?

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Absolutely. This has been a big passion of mine for many years, developed from life experiences. As part of the work I did, first of all I pursued a provincial registry in Alberta to get it onto the driver's licence.

There was frustration there, because only 20% of Albertans were registering, so we built up this new registry. We got it on the driver's licence, yet only 20% of Albertans were registering, and it was disappointing. I had to think of a way to get all Albertans—and now all Canadians, because I'm on the federal level—to tap into a product, the tax return. This would enable every Canadian to be approached—or at least every Canadian who does their taxes. I think that it would significantly increase the number of registrations on registries throughout the country.

It has to be put in front of Canadians. It has to be asked when they're there. For example, I went to renew my driver's licence. Of course, I've already registered, but there were others up ahead of me, and the registry agent would get them their new licence and ask if they would like to be an organ donor, if they would be willing to consent. When I was there that day, there were three people, out of maybe four or five, who said yes. The registry agent then went through the process of signing them up to the registry, which took maybe five minutes.

We just need to have people in place to be able to ask the question of Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I'm going to interfere for a second. I don't want to cause anybody any grief, but we've just been notified that there is a motion in the House that could come to a vote later this morning.

I wonder if we should go to the CRA, and then do the clause-by-clause. I need unanimous consent. I don't want anybody denied their opportunity to ask Mr. Webber questions. I know you all have personal interest in this. I know Mr. Aboultaif, especially, has been a long-time advocate and has been involved with organ donation. Mr. Ayoub has as well, and so on.

Would we have unanimous consent to throw Mr. Webber out, bring in CRA, and move forward with the CRA testimony?

Mr. Davies, go ahead.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I have a couple of questions. Our whip's office told me yesterday that a vote might be coming at 10 o'clock and bells at 10:40 a.m. Do you have any information that it will be before that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

We don't.

We have one chance to get through this, get through clause-by-clause and get it done today. I don't want to interfere—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I do object to your raising this after the Liberals have had their full—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

No, he hasn't had his full time. I was just notified now. I realize that, so if we don't have unanimous consent, we will continue with Mr. Webber.

Mr. Lobb, go ahead.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Maybe a form of compromise would be to throw Mr. Webber out, let the CRA appear, and then if there's still time, he can come back up and finish off his time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

This is up to you. We're not trying to take anything away. I'm sure Mr. Aboultaif, especially, would like to have a word here.

Mr. Davies, go ahead.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

We've just had one round. We're at about 14 minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I just don't want to miss it. That's all. I just wanted to give the committee the option. We don't have unanimous consent, so we will continue with—

Go ahead.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

If we could have them all up here together, we could ask whomever we like.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Would that work for you, Mr. Davies, to bring the CRA up now?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes. Maybe that's a better compromise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

All right. Thanks very much.

We will suspend the meeting for a moment and bring the CRA up. Thanks very much, everybody.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

We will resume meeting 125.

We welcome officials from the CRA. On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for all your co-operation and help to get this thing moving along.

We're going to ask you, Mr. Vermaeten, to introduce your colleagues and give a two-minute opening statement. Then we're going to riddle you with questions.