Health Committee on June 13th, 2019

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That would also be related to the Indian Act, which controls membership, such as who is an Indian and who is not a status Indian. Is that right?

[Karen Stote]

That's right.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I know NWAC has a strong position on that, related to, for instance, who is a status Indian and who is not a status Indian. There was even a bill before Parliament, Senate Bill S-3, which looked at enlarging the number of people who were supposed to receive status. That would repair a lot of the things in the past.

Is that stopping a government policy that was really about eliminating or removing indigenous peoples from their roles and assimilating them into Canadian society?

[Francyne Joe]

I'd have to say that the purpose of Bill S-3 was to ensure that the indigenous population was reduced and that the children and grandchildren of those women who lost their rights also lost those rights. That's why we're hoping that S-3 will be rectified.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I will ask all of you this. In your opinion, if no one has been charged anywhere in this country and yet we know it has been going on since the 1970s, does Canadian society really care?

[Alisa Lombard]

I don't purport to speak for Canadian society, but I can say that impunity often results in a perpetuation of that which is going unpunished, not surprisingly. We know this because we've heard of the historical occurrences and now know that this has happened as recently as December 2018.

I had a baby a few months ago. She is four months old. She's outside with her dad. My client had hers six months ago. When all this began, neither one of them were born and neither one of us was pregnant. Now, these little girls, these little indigenous girls, are growing, teething, giggling and learning from us.

When this all began, when we filed, they were just a glimmer in our eyes. This is how fast time goes. This is how quickly the generations are coming up. It is critically important that action be taken to protect them, so that they don't have to experience the same thing that so many indigenous women have experienced.

We meet today, in the afternoon of Thursday, June 13. That's great and everyone will go home, but my clients live with this every day. They cannot have children. It was not their choice. They suffer. They don't look at this as just an afternoon from time to time.

A semi-answer to your question of whether Canadians care is that I guess we'll find out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you very much.

Next is Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for coming.

This is unbelievable. That's the word I want to use. When I heard we were going to do this study, I wondered why we were studying this. I thought this was illegal in Canada, in which case it's a police matter. What I'm hearing from your testimony is that it is not illegal in Canada. I guess that's the place I want to start.

My first question is for Alisa.

What would a trauma-informed, culturally relevant way of addressing this issue look like for your clients?

[Alisa Lombard]

That's a very big question. I would have to ask them.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

I think it was Melanie who said that we needed more research. Could you expand on the kind of research you'd like to see done, Melanie?

[Melanie Omeniho]

We don't know how many women have been impacted or affected by forced sterilization.

Number one, when we went to our community and talked to the women in our community and sampled only a small group of women, many of them had no idea what their experiences were. They hadn't shared that with their fellow Métis sisters. They were ashamed of the decisions they made.

Part of our culture is that motherhood, the bearing of children and the bringing forward and passing on of our knowledge and traditions, is a big part of who we are within our culture. That gets stripped away from them. They don't want to talk about it or they're ashamed to share the fact that they're no longer able to be a part of that.

I just want to say that it really does bode well that we need to do research. Many of the medical institutions and staff don't want to talk about this. I know that the term “doctors” has been raised here, but it isn't just doctors. Some of this forced and coerced sterilization isn't coming from just doctors. It may be doctors who are doing the procedures, but the coercion is starting much earlier on, with social workers and other people within the hospital institutions.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much.

This question is for Karen Stote.

In terms of a solution, I'm assuming that we have to make a law to make this illegal, and we have to train the police and the RCMP in order to have them take action. As well, we have to get the medical professions to inform, to make it a criterion for their workforce, and to educate them or make that a clearer mandate. Are there other things that we need to do to keep this from happening again?

[Karen Stote]

I'll qualify this by saying that you're asking me, so you're getting my opinions.

There are laws in Canada for things such as assault, and the very fact that forced sterilization is not considered a crime under existing law is part of the problem. Whether or not a law is put in place, I am hesitant to go that route, seeing how laws are currently upheld in relation to indigenous peoples or in relation to women. Putting another law on the books without proper enforcement is not something that is going to solve any issue, and the criminal justice system itself is imbued with systemic racism. We know this from previous reports.

In my opinion, there are a lot of things. There are different levels of change that need to happen. On the individual level, there's dealing with the women who have been subject to this violence and supporting them and giving them proper redress. At the institutional level, there's dealing with hospitals, health care professionals and all of the other practitioners that interact with indigenous peoples in terms of that training and those policies that can be implemented on an institutional level.

Ultimately, in my opinion, the systemic level is where change needs to happen. Otherwise, we will continue to sit in these rooms and talk about these injustices. And these injustices aren't happening just in medical institutions, right? They're happening in the criminal justice system. They're happening in the child welfare system and so on.

Systemic change needs to happen. What is the context that is creating racism in the first place? What is the context that is allowing for coercion? That's where the change needs to happen.

As I was thinking about coming to this committee today...because this is tiring for people, right? I was thinking, how many more injustices is it going to take for people to do something? I'm a Canadian. How much longer? This is not to shame anybody in the room, but the opportunities are here. The time is right to do something. You guys can be some of the people involved in doing something fundamental to change the relationship between Canada and indigenous peoples, and none of that is going to be completely effective if we don't address colonialism.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I would open that question up to the rest of the panel as well. What other recommendations would you have that we could take action on?

[Francyne Joe]

Women need to be able to trust the system, and obviously that hasn't been the case because of our history.

We need to include the advocacy centres in the offices of hospitals so that women have a place to go. These indigenous advocacy centres need to have indigenous women. We also need a reparation fund for those women who have suffered.

I can't imagine the distress of a woman who can no longer bear a child. I've lost a child. It's something you never forget. Having that put upon you.... We need to support those women.

We need to make sure that Canada demonstrates that we're ready to change. We need to collect the data, and we need to hold the medical profession accountable. In my opinion, that's where we start.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to thank all of you for being here and speaking with such strong and brave testimony. I just want to preface my comments by saying that I was present twice for my wife's births, and I can't think of a more vulnerable time for any human being than when a woman is preparing to deliver her child. I can't think of a worse crime than for someone to take away from someone, without their full, prior and informed consent, the right to choose their fertility.

I'm going to be directing my questions in a different area.

Does the federal government care? It's not whether Canadian society cares. When this story first became public, we heard some very, very passionate and profound comments from the Minister of Health and from others decrying this and acknowledging that this is a form of torture, saying that it has no place in society.

That's the political statement that has been made by the government. Now I have some questions to see how that's manifested in practice.

Ms. Lombard, first, to get some facts out, how many women are members of your class action right now?

[Alisa Lombard]

To be clear, a class action becomes that when it is certified, and so at this point, it's a putative class action, and we're going through the preliminary stages of getting that action certified.

I have spoken with.... At this point I've lost count.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Do you have a ballpark number?

[Alisa Lombard]

There are dozens of women, over 100.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can you give us a general idea what percentage of those potential members of the putative class action are indigenous?

[Alisa Lombard]

They all are.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

All of them are.

So far, has the federal government offered any reparations whatsoever to any of these women, as far as you're aware?

[Alisa Lombard]

No.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Has the federal government offered any support or resources to any of these victims of forced sterilization?