Yes.
Evidence of meeting #153 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was medical.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #153 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was medical.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
4:20 p.m.
Lawyer, Semaganis Worme Lombard, As an Individual
They are interim supports in the way of crisis counselling.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Crisis counselling.
Ms. Joe, I'm going to take a bit of a different tack to Ms. Gladu's comments. As you are probably aware, the United Nations Committee Against Torture recommended to Canada a number of things when this was brought to their attention, including the explicit criminalization of forced sterilization in the Criminal Code.
The federal government has rejected that, but the government's answer as to why they have rejected that is they believe the present Criminal Code is sufficient. I think they're partially correct that performing a surgery on someone without prior, informed consent does constitute assault, There's no question. I think it already is illegal. I have a different view on whether they should add the explicit criminalization as the United Nations.... That's my question.
Do you agree with the United Nations Committee Against Torture? I think, also, that Assembly of First Nations Chief Perry Bellegarde is calling on the federal government to explicitly criminalize the practice of forced sterilization without consent.
4:20 p.m.
President, Native Women's Association of Canada
I think this issue has been something that communities of women have discussed silently and quietly. We know that if you go to a certain hospital, this might happen. We don't know our rights, so when we talk about justice, it doesn't affect us. We can't always hire lawyers.
To criminalize this doesn't really fix the problem. We need to have the changes at the hospital. We need to have changes in the communities. I see where it would be great to criminalize the behaviour of the medical profession, but we've seen that it hasn't helped with missing and murdered indigenous women. It's a crime to kill a woman, but we still see thousands of women gone.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
4:20 p.m.
Lawyer, Semaganis Worme Lombard, As an Individual
I presented to the United Nations Committee Against Torture in November. I was 32 weeks pregnant, and I flew to Geneva to deliver the voices of these women so that they might help provide some recommendations so that Canada might know what to do about this atrocity. Thankfully, they listened, and they issued these recommendations.
My opinion is that of one of my client's. Her name is Morningstar Mercredi. She experienced, at the age of 14, a coerced termination and some injuries that subsequently led to her infertility. She's a very strong advocate for specific criminalization. She was a minor and she did not consent. What else do we turn to in those types of situations?
Then I ask, what is the risk of criminalizing forced and coerced sterilization? If proper and informed consent is obtained, then no one gets charged. So what is the problem? Where is the risk? Prisons will not fill with physicians who are well meaning and who intended to do some good work. This is not the kind of act that a majority of doctors engage in. I believe the Ontario Medical Association came forward and said that. I agree. I don't think a majority of Canadian physicians engage in their work in this way. But some clearly do, and when are they held to account for these kinds of things?
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I'll turn to you, Ms. Omeniho, for my last question.
On February 19, I wrote to the RCMP commissioner to request that the RCMP initiate an investigation into allegations of forced or coerced sterilizations and lay appropriate charges. After all, unlike with the murdered and missing women where these things happened and maybe there were no witnesses, we know precisely where these occurred, who performed them and who obtained authorizations. She wrote me back in March saying that the RCMP failed to launch an investigation because no complaints were reported to the RCMP. I then wrote a letter to the public safety minister, Ralph Goodale, and asked him to direct the RCMP to investigate. He declined as well.
Do you believe there should be an investigation undertaken by the RCMP to at least determine the extent of this and to determine whether charges should be laid?
4:25 p.m.
President, Women of the Métis Nation / Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak
Yes, I do. If we were to put laws in place that made people accountable for coerced and forced sterilization, do I think, much like they said, a bunch of doctors would end up in a jail cell? No. I don't believe that. But I do believe this brings accountability into this question. I think as professionals, they'll behave within the confines of the laws that guide them. I think it will discourage them.
I also want us to go a step further. I believe it's time that we as Canadians started putting within school curriculums what rights are and how people have violations of rights. Teach people how to apply their rights so that they know how to deal with things like institutions and hospitals when they go there, and how to make sure their rights don't get violated. I don't think it's just indigenous women who have violations of rights. I see violations of rights all over this country. We need to start educating our children so that when they grow up, they have a better conscience about it and they also know if they're violating somebody else's rights. I think the whole missing key is that we don't have any understanding or an education system that helps support the rights of people.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question will be in French, so you might need translation.
I too want to thank you for your testimony. This is a troubling situation. It's hard to understand...
I'll wait for Madame Stote, just to make sure she....
4:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Women and Gender Studies, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual
It's all right, I understand French.
June 13th, 2019 / 4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
That's good.
Personally, I can't accept that such a thing would happen anywhere in the world, and even less so in our country, Canada.
The questions I would really like to ask you may be difficult.
You said you don't have much data. People come to see you and tell you that they experienced this trauma, this illegal practice, that they were sterilized without their consent. There is something systemic there. There is concerted action. I'm not a doctor, but it seems that this type of medical act is practised in certain specific locations. As you mentioned, Ms. Joe, you just know that you have to avoid certain hospitals, because that sort of intervention might take place. There has been talk of asking the RCMP to investigate, but it doesn't happen, because there are too few complaints. In my opinion, one single complaint should be enough to get this file moving.
All that being said, how does one conclude, as you have, that there is a systemic problem, and concerted action against indigenous women? Have other communities experienced the same type of problem? I'd like you to enlighten me on that.
Ms. Lombard, you seem to want to respond, so please do so.
The other witnesses could answer afterwards, if they wish.
4:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Semaganis Worme Lombard, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
The only information we have is based on the stories people tell us. Regarding injustices experienced in the communities, you have to understand that women do not always talk about the birth experiences they have had. They don't often confide in anyone. However, when they start to do so, we see that certain experiences are similar. For instance, women who got in touch with me realized, once they had the courage to open up to their sisters about what they'd been through, that they had been through the same thing. So through these experiences we begin to get the picture.
We are told that an investigation cannot be done until there is more information, but isn't the purpose of an investigation to collect information?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
It is not that we need more information, but people say that we need more cases. However, in my opinion, in the Canadian legal system, someone who is aggrieved should, from the outset, be able to file a complaint and take action. It's already provided for in the code.
In this context, why are we saying that no investigation is being conducted, if there is a complaint?
4:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Semaganis Worme Lombard, As an Individual
I'd like to say two things about that.
A woman who is harmed because she has been sterilized without her consent will not file a complaint with the RCMP, but with the local police. Therefore, when we say that there have been no complaints, that is not entirely true. Indeed, one of my clients filed a complaint, but not with the RCMP.
4:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Semaganis Worme Lombard, As an Individual
No. Excuse me for saying it so bluntly, but there was a national survey to determine why so many indigenous women, disproportionately, had disappeared or been murdered. This is due to a lack of attention from authorities and institutions. As we have said, there are systemic problems. There is a lack of regard, a lack of consideration. In such a situation, things can continue, can they not?
The RCMP says that no investigation was conducted because there were no complaints. The RCMP did not receive any complaints, but there was one in Saskatchewan and nothing was done. If this woman does not receive any information as a result of her complaint, what will she do? Will she go knock on the RCMP's door? No. Relations between indigenous women in Canada and the RCMP are not perfect.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Enlighten me on the technical side. When we say that these women were sterilized without their consent, is it because there was no consent, even in writing, and no one else was there? Is sterilization performed after the woman has given birth, or at a later time? How is this done without consent, how does it work?
4:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Semaganis Worme Lombard, As an Individual
I talked about three concrete experiences of three women. As these stories demonstrate, written consent does not automatically mean that consent has been validly obtained. The person must receive information and have the ability to consider it and give consent without pressure or coercion. These are the criteria for appropriate consent.
Even if having a child carries medical risks and may cost a woman her life, it is up to her to decide whether she wants to take that risk. To the extent that all information is provided, it remains her choice.
I gave birth on February 7 and it's still very fresh in my memory. I can tell you that a birth is really not the right time to discuss this. It is not easy. It is very difficult to decide right away if you want to relive this experience. This is not the time to discuss things that are not necessary. It is already difficult enough to discuss the ones that are necessary.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
In the hundreds of cases you have been informed of, was this done exclusively at that time?
