Health Committee on June 18th, 2019

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much, and thank you, Commissioner, for coming today.

First of all, in your mind, with the definitions that we have today, is it illegal for somebody to perform a forced sterilization upon someone who has given consent during labour?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

The only law we have to rely on is aggravated assault. With aggravated assault, the Criminal Code says, “Every one commits an aggravated assault who wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of the complainant.”

Each situation would depend on the circumstances.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

Do you think it would be helpful to introduce a law that specifically called out forced sterilization and gave a definition of what is “informed consent”?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

On the way here, I honestly thought about whether I even had an opinion about that. I'm not sure I do. I just think, right now, with the RCMP, we work within the laws of the Criminal Code that we have.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

We heard testimony that there may be as many as a thousand or more Canadian women who have experienced forced sterilization.

Is it your view that it would be the responsibility of local police to investigate those instances, and where we don't have local police and the RCMP is serving that function, it would then be the RCMP's responsibility?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It's not a question of local police or RCMP. It's a question of police of jurisdiction. It's always where the event took place.

If an event took place in, for instance, as we have spoken about, a Saskatoon hospital, the Saskatoon city police would be the police of jurisdiction. If it took place outside of Saskatoon and not in Regina, anywhere else in Saskatchewan, it would be the RCMP.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I'm sure that when you heard you were coming to the committee, you looked into the situation. You said there weren't any cases.

Was there other information that you uncovered, and would you have recommendations for the committee on what we should do to try to prevent this from happening to other women?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We actually looked into it a few months ago when I received a letter from MP Don Davies. We solicited the assistance of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police as well. Definitely, as I said, we went back and we don't have any cases that came forward that weren't investigated. There were none that came forward in our system, so it's about getting the victims to come forward.

I am feeling confident because, if the victims have come forward civilly, maybe there is a potential that they want to come forward criminally. However, everybody has to make an informed choice.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Okay.

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Commissioner, thank you for being here.

As a state party to the UN convention against torture, Canada's record on preventing and addressing torture and other forms of treatment is periodically reviewed by the UN Committee Against Torture. Canada's most recent review took place last November in Geneva, and in its final report, the committee officially recognized that the “extensive forced or coerced sterilization of indigenous women” in Canada is a form of torture.

The UN committee provided Canada with a number of recommendations, including that the Government of Canada ensure that all allegations of forced or coerced sterilization are impartially investigated.

In your view, which institution in Canada should bear primary responsibility for ensuring that all allegations of forced sterilization are impartially investigated in Canada?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I would have to go back to the place of jurisdiction where the event took place, because that's the way the law works.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Do you have reason to believe that some of these forced sterilizations could have taken place in areas of jurisdiction under which the RCMP had control?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Possibly, yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay. As you pointed out, I wrote to you back in February and pointed out to you that a class action lawsuit had been filed, at that time naming some 60 women as complainants and naming the federal government, regional health authorities and individual physicians over incidents of forced or coerced sterilization. I understand that class action has since gone to over 100 women.

With that information, you have a potential source of named victims and a potential source of named defendants. Presumably with a source gathering when and what happened, would that not constitute some evidence that would give you a basis for contacting those people and commencing an investigation starting there?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We would have to get the source and get the names, and so far we're following up on that. We're not sure how successful we'll be, because in health, if you've ever dealt with health, it's very hard to get names or anything under privacy, so unless—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Could you get a warrant?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It would depend on the circumstances, but normally when we go for a warrant it's very specific information. It's not like a blanket kind of exercise where we ask for “any or all names related to”, but I'd have to look into that further.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Fair enough.

Commissioner Lucki, is it your position that the RCMP does not have the authority to proactively investigate suspected criminal activity in the absence of a complaint?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Normally we always work off a complaint of some form, whether it's a suspicion of a complaint. We're following a name, a victim, a defendant, and going from that trail, but without the names and respecting privacy, because there may be some victims who may want to go civilly but would not want to go through anything criminally....

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

That could come up through the investigation. This is where I have trouble. If we went outside today and came across a vehicle with its engine running and a broken windshield, and there was blood all over the seats and trailing away from the scene, would you say that there was nothing to investigate until a complaint was received?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

There is potential evidence of some sort of foul play. Isn't that correct?