Evidence of meeting #154 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sterilization.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Judith Bartlett  Retired professor, Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Sonia Alimi  Research Coordinator, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Jihan Abbas  Researcher, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Lisa Richardson  Chair, Indigenous Health Committee, Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada
Jennifer Blake  Chief Executive Officer, Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada

3:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

But that's right in front of us. It's right there, as opposed to most of this historic.... When I say “historic”, 2018 isn't historic, but I would say that it's something that has already occurred. It's not in the process of occurring. It's a different set of circumstances.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Then let me be more focused on this. I'm going to operate from the assumption that, as former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould said, she was content that the current Criminal Code is sufficient to cover this and that performing a surgical procedure on someone against their will or without their consent does constitute a crime. In fact, that was the reason the government gave to the UN Committee Against Torture for why it won't change the Criminal Code to have a specific crime for it.

I'm operating from the assumption that if you operate on someone without their consent, you're committing the crime of aggravated assault as it currently is, so when we know that there are dozens and dozens of women who have said that this has occurred, and we know when it occurred, where it occurred and in some cases who did it, I'm puzzled by why the RCMP would say, “We're just going to sit back and not do anything, even though there seems to be potential evidence of a crime, until someone comes forward.” We would never investigate the Mafia if that were the case.

3:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

We're not really saying that we're sitting back and doing nothing. We're following up to try to get some of the names or all of the names of potential victims and potential defendants so that we can follow up and have a trail to follow up.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Have you contacted the lawyer for the defendants?

3:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Not to my knowledge, but I know they've have done some work on.... I'm not sure who they've contacted, but I don't think so.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Have you checked with the records filed in the courthouse for the class action?

3:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I know that there is a whole bunch of people following up on things. I don't have the specifics, but I know they're trying to follow the trail to see if we can get names and also they are working with the other police agencies to see what they have.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Okay.

Now, if a survivor of forced sterilization had previously come forward to the RCMP but was then referred to a medical regulatory authority, would such an interaction be recorded as a complaint, or in any way, with your records?

3:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

It should be recorded as at least a contact, but depending on when it was, it may not show up in our records. It could have been already disposed of if it was far in the past.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Okay. I'm going to repeat a question that Ms. Gladu asked you. I know you've answered it, but I want to push it a bit.

In terms of a Criminal Code amendment that made performing a surgical procedure on someone without their consent or against their will a specific Criminal Code offence, would you find that helpful in giving the officers under your command greater guidance and maybe a potential source of investigation, or do you feel that the Criminal Code is fine the way it is right now?

3:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I just think that we enforce the applicable laws in accordance with the specific circumstances—the laws that are there. I think the Department of Justice would be in a better position to respond to such a question.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

For my last question, I'm going to go back to the complaint thing. If it came to the police's attention that there was, say, a child who was being sexually abused in a household and you had some sort of information that it might have occurred but no complaint had come forward, would you wait until a complaint was filed before you did anything?

3:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

No, but if they said, for instance, that something happened in Canada, which is right now what we have, or it happened in a town, unless we get more information to narrow down who that child is, we would follow up as far as we could follow up and try to figure out who that was.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

In this case—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

No, you're done.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

I'm sorry.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Thanks very much.

Now we're going to go back to that side. Is there anyone...? I know that Mr. Ouellette wants a question.

Mr. McKinnon, go ahead, please.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Chair.

We've heard that it's sometimes difficult for women to approach police to lodge a complaint or to register that an incident has occurred. I'm wondering if there are alternatives to that. It comes to mind that information can be sworn to a justice of the peace, I believe, to initiate a criminal action. Is that correct?

3:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes, I believe.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

People could approach a justice of the peace and say, “This has been going on and I'd like to lodge a complaint.” That would be passed on to the appropriate police of jurisdiction.

3:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

They couldn't necessarily lay a charge. They could bring the information forward, but we'd still have to investigate it before anything further criminally could happen. We could encourage them also.... We do have victim services units that we use to make victims more at ease. We are doing a lot of extra training now, trauma centre-type of training, in the RCMP. We have a bunch of different courses, because we need to be, and we want to be, that police agency that not only do people feel comfortable with and trust us, but when they do come forward, we treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve as a victim.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

I respect that. However, I guess I was looking for an alternative other than going through police services and whether a justice of the peace could serve that function.

3:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

In some ways.... They could bring the complaint forward, but the police would still come and need to take a statement.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

That's okay. It can be initiated outside of the police forces. Is that right?

3:55 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes.