Health Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I will call our meeting to order. Today we're here to discuss M-47. On December 8, the House of Commons passed private member's motion M-47, which states:

That the Standing Committee on Health be instructed to examine the public health effects of the ease of access and viewing of online violent and degrading sexually explicit material on children, women and men, recognizing and respecting the provincial and territorial jurisdictions in this regard, and that the said Committee report its findings to the House no later than July 2017.

Today we'll hear from MP Viersen who proposed the motion.

You have 10 minutes for your opening statement.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Good morning, everybody. It's a real honour and a privilege to be here today. I got to know many of you over the process of advocating for the motion, so it's an honour for me here today to address the committee as a whole. Thank you for inviting me here.

It has been an interesting road that I've travelled for the first 18 months since I was elected. I was honoured to receive support from every party in the House of Commons for the motion M-47. I think that reflects the gravity of the negative health impacts on youth and adults who access and view online sexual violence.

Since M-47 was adopted, I have received inquiries from around the world. Countries as far away as Denmark have been astonished at M-47's success through the House of Commons. They view the adoption of M-47 as a progressive step towards gender equality and look forward to the outcome of this study.

I don't mean to add any more pressure to this committee, but other countries are looking at what Canada is going to do. We will probably set an example for the world in addressing the negative health impacts of sexual violence online. They see us as cutting edge on this issue.

It's hard to believe that it has been over 30 years since the House of Commons has taken on a study of this topic, especially the issue of sexually explicit material. Thirty years ago, the Internet never even existed. We're in a whole new world, as they say. Even back then before the Internet, that committee found that sexually explicit material perpetrates “lies about aspects of women's humanity and denies the validity of their aspirations to be treated as full and equal citizens.”

A lot of people, when they think of pornography today, think of Playboy. But the fact is that online adult content has shifted, due to the explosion of the Internet, to a much more explicit form of material, the vast majority of which features violence and degradation.

I want to share a few key statistics about sexually explicit material and the industry behind it. In Canada, the average age of first exposure to sexually explicit material for boys is 12 years old. Sexually explicit websites get more visitors each month than Netflix, Amazon, and Twitter combined, with PornHub, the largest free site in Canada, alone receiving over 21 billion visits in 2015.

Thirty-five per cent of all Internet downloads are sexually explicit. Globally, sexually explicit material represents a $97 billion industry. Almost 90% of mainstream sexually explicit content features violence towards women. Sexually explicit material has become the primary source of information about sex and a significant factor influencing sexual behaviours for children and adolescents.

Let that sink in for a minute. A $97-billion industry that makes up 35% of all Internet downloads, that is easily accessible by the click of a button, and that primarily features violence and degradation of women is the primary sexual educator of our youth, starting from the age of 12.

As a result, boys and girls are being taught that violence and degradation is acceptable and to be accepted. As they grow up to be women and men, they are denied meaningful relationships. This is impacting the physical, mental, and emotional health of many young Canadians who will grow up to be mothers, fathers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, and legislators.

We need federal leadership through the lens of the public health model, and I hope that the study by and recommendations of this committee will set the stage for leadership from the government. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention explain the public health model approach as: define the problem, identify risk and protective factors, develop initiatives and programs, and invest in widespread adaptation of effective efforts.

In Canada, and globally, we are the first on the stage on this issue. We need to define the extent of the harm to the health of Canadians, especially our youth. There has been extensive research undertaken regarding the impact of accessing and viewing violent and degrading sexually explicit material, but it has to be addressed within the public health model approach.

If we think back to the fight against tobacco, the key shift didn't occur until the harm was recognized and the public health model approach was taken. We explored and defined the problem, identified the risks and preventative factors, and developed a public health campaign. We saw success in that there was a widespread adoption of effective initiatives. Over the past 30 years, tobacco use by Canadians under the age of 24 has been cut in half and smoking cigarettes is no longer socially acceptable.

Now, some may say that people are not impacted by media and marketing and kids are especially impacted by what they view. But the evidence tells us otherwise, especially in research done by health organizations. For example, this year's report from the Heart and Stroke Foundation focuses on the harmful impacts of online marketing and media. I have it right here. They say, “The kids are not alright”, and that's just with regard to the food and beverage sector, never mind that the largest portion of the Internet is being used for sexually explicit materials, not food marketing.

The message throughout the report communicates the same message that child advocates and research on this issue want to emphasize. It notes:

Marketing is big business and it is sophisticated. Millions of dollars are spent convincing our impressionable children and teens they want a whole range of products, including food and beverages that are having a devastating effect on their health.

These tactics are employed by every industry, especially the pornography industry. As I mentioned earlier, 40 years of multidisciplinary research on the emotional, social, developmental, behavioural, and cognitive impacts of exposure to sexually explicit material have been undertaken. That is why I am urging this committee to undertake a robust and in-depth study.

There are many experts who are available to speak to the committee about public health impacts of online sexually violent and degrading material. In fact, the motion that I put forward received support from nearly 60 organizations from across the country, and that has nothing to do with the front-line workers and the academics who are working in this field, or the health care providers who see the effects of this every day.

This committee needs to hear from researchers, academics, and health experts on how the evidence shows the harms of viewing and accessing sexually explicit material. Some people you might like to hear from include Dr. Kim Roberts from Wilfrid Laurier University, who works on child memory development and has consulted on thousands of cases of child sexual abuse, or Dr. Mary Anne Layden, a psychotherapist at the Center for Cognitive Therapy at the University of Pennsylvania. She can speak on how the exposure shapes attitudes and behaviours; shapes sexual templates; shapes gender and sexual identity; encourages risky behaviours; limits capacity to develop intimate and life-affirming relationships, both platonic and sexual; leads to body dysmorphia; can lead to habitual and addictive porn consumption; and can undermine a healthy, connected, stable adulthood for men and women.

You could also hear from Dr. Donald Hilton, a well-known neurosurgeon, who can speak on how viewing sexually explicit material can shape and rewire an adolescent brain.

The Public Health Agency of Canada lists exposure to sexually explicit material as a contributing factor on sibling violence. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health noted in her speech in the House in support of my motion that there is a staggering 342% increase in the reports of child sexual abuse over four years to Cybertip.ca.

The committee should also consider that as many as one in six girls and one in 12 boys are currently experiencing sexual abuse. Dr. Peter Silverstone, co-author of a new study out of the University of Alberta states:

When all types of sexual abuse are combined including exposure to pornography or other sexual material, the number of children sexually abused is as high as 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys.

The committee also needs to hear from people from the front lines, such as pediatricians, registered nurses, psychologists, child development researchers, Canadian front-line service providers for abused women and children, teachers, social workers, and the like. They will all tell you about the direct impacts on the health of women, men, and children that exposure to sexually explicit material is having.

They will tell you that the public health issues include sexually transmitted infections; the direct impact on women who are not just minors who continue to be viewed as objects to be sexually assaulted or tortured by family members, partners, or strangers; how harming women has become normalized by the pornography industry; the prevalence of revenge porn and the resulting suicides; the direct impact on young men, including erectile dysfunction, addiction, loss of motivation; increased support for sexual coercion; and the relationship between pseudo child sexual assault and real child sexual assault.

The renowned Sheldon Kennedy Child Advocacy Centre puts it this way:

The impact of exposure to pornography, sexual exploitation and the overall sexualisation of children results in traumatic and detrimental outcomes for a child. It is our view that it is society's collective responsibility to protect children outweighing concerns about censorship.... Any exposure to adult or child pornographic images is abuse and children are detrimentally harmed and further victimized by these actions.

Yet today, the $97-billion pornography industry has unparalleled and uninhibited access to our youth, marketing violence and degradation on a level never before seen. We need to be bold. We need to take action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Mr. Viersen, you're considerably over, so you can wind it up here.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

As a nation we need to take a comprehensive approach to this issue based on a public health model.

I want to end by quoting Ms. Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, who captures this so well in her quote. She says:

The objectification of the female body, the normalization of pornography, and rape language and culture is destroying the self-esteem of our girls and is an insult to the spirit of our boys.

That is what is at stake here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you.

Now we're going to start our first round of seven-minute questions. We're going to start with Dr. Eyolfson.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Viersen. You've obviously put a lot of work and thought into this. As you say, it's an important issue that should be dealt with. I think it's gone unnoticed for too long.

What role do you think parents are playing in this right now?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I would say that our parents are definitely our first educators, so they're our first line of defence. As with every health issue that we come across, the parental responsibility and role is paramount; it's the number one role. Just as with smoking, gambling, and alcohol, the state also has significant roles to play in that as well.

In Canada we have public health so we need to ensure that everybody is engaged in informed consent so that they know what they're getting into when they view these things. Look at the models that we've done for either tobacco use or alcohol use in terms of how the state has interfered with parental rights.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Further to that, do you foresee a role in schools in educating children in matters of healthy sexual attitudes, safe-sex practices, and consent? Do you think schools can play a role in helping to educate them as a defence against this problem?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes, I see the schools as an extension of the parental responsibility. One of the really interesting things that has happened in Alberta is that the association of school trustees voted 97% in favour of implementing the outcomes of this study into their curriculum. In Alberta right now we're going through a curriculum overhaul, and they said the impacts of pornography should definitely be part of the sex education in Alberta.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'm glad to hear this is happening. I'm a firm proponent that schools can play a role in education to children in safe-sex practices and healthy attitudes.

What is your response when you have parents who want to opt their children out of such education programs, who say that they object to having this kind of education in schools, and who accuse the state of interfering with their parental rights by teaching these matters in school?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Once again I'll go back to my earlier statement that I think that the parents are the primary educators of their children and their children's education is entirely their responsibility, and they're allowed to defer some of that responsibility to the state. I would go back to the fact that, if they're uncomfortable with this, they should be allowed to opt out.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Part of this motion talks about ease of access. Again, it's something I couldn't agree with more. Children can simply walk out with one of these devices, and once out the door, any reliable teenager can figure out how to get around parental locks, and things.

When you talk about ease of access, do you know of any jurisdictions where something like this—addressing ease of access at a government level—has been addressed?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I believe that the U.K. has already been down this path somewhat. They carry it on two different streams, I think, without passing any legislation. Their own Internet service providers have put in some sort of opt-in filter or meaningful age verification. Opt-in filters and meaningful age verification are two things they looked at.

There's one thing I'd like to point out about this. You say that teenagers are looking for this. First exposure, typically, is not somebody looking for it. There's a nine-year-old boy in Manitoba who was a playing a video game and it was just a pop-up on his screen. It's being marketed to them. That would be one of the things I would like to stress, for sure.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Yes, I couldn't agree more. It used to be a joke that when you did any Internet search, everything past your third hit was nude celebrities. That's, unfortunately, not a joke anymore.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

You're right. It does come up when you're looking for something else. It's very difficult.

I know you've probably been asked some of this. In talking about the public health and ease of access, what would you say is the government's role in addressing this? How would the government control this ease of access?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

That's going to be a difficult one, just because of my own civil liberty.... I see myself as a libertarian, as well. That's going to be a fine line, for sure.

I would say that the public health model legislation is just one of the roads we can go down. I think we need to turn the culture on a lot of this stuff, much like with smoking. We never banned smoking, but we have done, and continue to do, significant work in stigmatizing those who smoke. We can make all the laws in the world, but if the culture doesn't change, we still....

Cordelia Anderson, a lady we had here on the Hill the other day, said it well. She said that we cannot prosecute, legislate, or incarcerate our way out of this issue. It's going to be a culture shift, for sure. That's what any of us who work in the field of gender equality are working on—culture shifts. We cannot legislate our way out of this.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I have no further questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

We'll move to Mr. Webber.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Viersen, for being here today and for all the work you've done on this and many of the other work-related things you do as an MP. I know people in your constituency of Peace River—Westlock who have not met you but have heard about the work you've been doing. They appreciate it, and they thank you, as well.

Mr. Viersen, in your presentation you asked us to do a robust study of this issue of sexually explicit material and the harm it does in our society. I am still unsure, though, of the kinds of outcomes or recommendations you would like to see in the report from this committee. Could you give us some idea of what you would like to see come out of this report?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

As I mentioned earlier, it's imperative that we get this public health model, much the same as we did with tobacco, in a similar vein. I would advocate that when you're speaking to the Canada health ministry later—I think you're having them in as well—that you ask them how it went with the public health model that they took when they went after tobacco and smoking.

I would love to see the recommendations include a number of things: a health campaign; funding of media literacy on this issue, and for youth; implementing the training of health care providers, so they can identify some of the addiction issues that come along with this; providing treatment for folks who are addicted.

One of the interesting things about online sexual violence is that when you combine the sexual stimuli with the violence, it triggers two parts of your brain at the same time. It gives you an effect that is similar to an illicit drug, so you have a number of people who are addicted to this in the same manner. Some of the neurologists will tell you that it's the same sort of thing that happens with somebody who takes illicit drugs. Therefore, it is highly addictive.

Have some meetings with some of the provincial ministers—Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan—on this topic. Get all of the health ministers together and have a meeting just on this, so that it's on their radar. Partner with the regulatory bodies, so that they all have a bit of training on this. Make it harder for youth to access it.

Going to the questions earlier, there is an opt-in or a meaningful age verification, and talk to the Internet service providers about that. Strengthen the obscenity laws to prevent the publication of violent and degrading sexually explicit material. That may be another option.

Ensure that the education system across this country addresses this as well. I know that's provincial jurisdiction, but use whatever methods you have here at your disposal.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Great, thank you.

Absolutely, education is a provincial jurisdiction. Again, I wonder what we could do there. Of course, bringing in the provincial ministers would be one thing, to get them together in a meeting.

There are a lot of people who have expressed an interest in presenting to this committee. We have an extensive list from our clerk, Mr. Gagnon. You're filling up my email, and I appreciate that. I'm glad that we have that interest from people who want to present. You've mentioned a few organizations that you would like to see present to us, but we also have numerous others that you probably don't even know about.

Mr. Chair, we have a subcommittee meeting to decide who we are going to have to present to us. I would ask you and the committee if perhaps Mr. Viersen can participate with me in the subcommittee meeting to look at the individuals who want to present to us. Perhaps we can have his input on who he thinks we should have at this particular meeting. I'm hoping that our committee would allow Mr. Viersen to be there at the subcommittee meeting to choose these witnesses.

I guess I should ask you first, Mr. Viersen. Would you be willing to come and choose these people to present to us? I'm sure your answer would be yes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes, for sure.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

If that's the case, then, I guess I don't have to ask you who else you think should be presenting to us during this study.

When you say you want this committee to do a robust study, what do you envision for time? How long do you envision—weeks, months? How many meetings do you expect us to do, Mr. Viersen?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

That is up to your committee for sure. I've had nearly 100 folks approach me asking, “How can I become a witness at this committee?” If you have six people at each meeting that would be six to 10 meetings, right? That's entirely up to you.

I know the committee report will be drawn upon by organizations from around the country. That's probably one of the big roles of the committee as well, to bring all those people together to build that report, so that there's a national view of what the problems are. For example, in my own province of Alberta, the school trustees have said that they will be using that report to build on the Alberta curriculum. There will be people using this report outside of this place. That's why I see that it's necessary to have a really robust report on this.