Evidence of meeting #42 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pharmac.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Brougham  As an Individual
Heather Roy  Chair of Board, Head Office, Medicines New Zealand
Graeme Jarvis  General Manager, Medicines New Zealand

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Len Webber

I call the meeting to order.

Because we have a tight timeline, we'd better get moving here. I'd like to welcome Mr. Matthew Brougham, who is a consultant economist with Brougham Consulting Inc. He is a former vice-president of products and services at the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health, and he's a former chief executive at Pharmac.

We welcome you here, Mr. Brougham. Thank you so much. We're going to give you 10 minutes for a presentation, and then we will question you after that. Please start whenever you're ready.

11:10 a.m.

Matthew Brougham As an Individual

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I hope I can help you in your deliberations on this important issue for Canada. More importantly, I hope that all of you here today have a very happy Valentine's Day.

New Zealand has universal access to pharmaceuticals. It has this at an affordable cost. More importantly, it can fully control the costs of its universal pharmacare program with a somewhat unrivalled precision.

New Zealand has a broad formulary. It has 2,000-plus line items. It has very low copayments by comparison with other countries, in the region of $0 to $5 per item a month. It has very low copayment maxima by comparative standards. No family spends more than $100 a year out-of-pocket on medicines. There are no annual maxima, and there are no lifetime maxima. Costs have grown at a manageable rate over the last 20-plus years, and that's between, on average, about 1% to 3%. During this modest growth in expenditure, the volume of medicines subsidized has grown, sometimes in excess of 8%. Along with all of that, new on-patent medicines and expansion to on-patent medicines have been added to the formulary.

It's clear from the testimony given to this committee, and indeed from the sentiments expressed by its members, that Canada wants universal access to pharmaceuticals for its citizens. The problem, of course, is how to get there.

I've read some of the testimony that you've heard over the last 12 months, and I'm struck by the complexity of the situation. Canada is a vast country and is united as a country under a loose federalism. That makes moving to universal access to pharmaceuticals all the more challenging. New Zealand, by contrast, has a unitary government, and most of its social services are supplied by central government. It's a small land mass and a small population, around the same size as British Columbia.

What does the New Zealand experience of management of pharmacare possibly have to offer Canada? Well, no matter how Canada decides to get there, one key element that it'll need to master to make it feasible is the ability to control the costs of such a scheme or schemes. New Zealand has costs under control, and thus, I believe, there are lessons that can be learned from its approach to gaining this control.

Here are what I believe are the key takeaways from the New Zealand experience.

First, within a jurisdiction, however that jurisdiction is defined, there needs to be a single purchaser. What does this actually mean? It means that the purchaser has to have the power to negotiate. To put it more bluntly, when it says no to a proposal to buy a pharmaceutical, no means no. If a seller can go to another purchaser within the same jurisdiction, the ability to negotiate is diminished. Likewise, if the seller can go to a politician and get a no overturned, the ability to negotiate is lost.

This leads to the second takeaway: the specific decisions about what pharmaceuticals to fund and what not to fund need to be distanced from political decision-making. It's not possible for the drug plan manager to negotiate and manage the costs if his or her day-to-day decisions are at significant risk of being changed. Clearly, drug plan management needs general oversight by our elected representatives and needs to be held accountable for individual decisions. However, this oversight, I believe, is better effected through other levers, rather than by undermining the ability to negotiate. In short, the power of veto should be used judiciously and rarely.

The third lesson is a little technical, but is nevertheless vital: drug plans are better managed by setting an explicit budget and demanding that managers gain the most health benefit possible from within this budget, rather than by setting decision thresholds. I suspect many of you have heard of NICE, the model we look at in the U.K. In NICE, typically decisions are made on the basis of a threshold, usually at cost per QALY, taking into account other things. They may set that threshold at, let's say, 40,000 quid per QALY. That's what I mean by a decision threshold. I don't believe that's a sensible way to approach management in this area, and there are several reasons for this.

First, obviously the funder knows what they're going to face when they set a budget, but more important are the incentives that setting a budget with an explicit objective create for managers and the lever it subsequently offers to politicians. Briefly, the important outcomes that arise from gaining the most health benefit from a fixed budget are as follows.

First, purchasers are given the strongest incentives possible to minimize opportunity costs in their decision-making. Then sellers, faced with purchasers attempting to minimize opportunity costs, are given incentives to offer prices nearer their minimum willingness to sell. By contrast, when thresholds are used, sellers are effectively saying this is the price at which they'll purchase this product. Clearly, this is not a good way to be negotiating prices in any market.

More importantly, the public, when given information, understand rational decision-making in the face of a budget constraint. This has been my learning through my period managing the Pharmaceutical Management Agency in New Zealand. People who have faced the consequences of these decisions, somewhat to their detriment, understand this notion of having to maximize benefit to society within a budget constraint.

Finally, once you have organizational mastery of an explicit objective within an explicit budget, this gives politicians a very powerful lever. It's a lever that allows them to deliberately and consciously reallocate funding between pharmacare and other health care in the manner that they perceive provides the most benefit.

We are all used to the idea of having budgets and being able to reallocate money across different budgets, but frequently those budgets are not stuck to. The difference I'm trying to get at here is organizational mastery of managing the pharmaceutical budget within the budget as set.

All these lessons are structural in nature, which is why I presented them here. If there's one comment I hope you remember from my testimony today, it is this: structure matters in this arena if you want to control costs.

Finally, I have a comment on the key criticism of the New Zealand approach, which I'm sure you're going to hear from my colleagues after the hour. It's often most heavily criticized for its apparent limiting of the range of medicines to which New Zealanders have funding access. In particular, some argue that the rate of adoption of new technology—that is, new chemical entities in this area—is too restrained.

While I might argue about what the word “too” means in “too restrained”, the adoption of new technology in New Zealand is in fact restrained. Creating a fixed budget and requiring its managers to stay within it creates a competitive tension in the marketplace only if the budget cannot fund everything.

I ask simply that you put this criticism in context. All New Zealanders, and I mean every last one of them, have publicly funded access to a very wide range of drugs. This stands in stark contrast to the situation that Canada finds itself in, where some Canadians have access to an even wider range of drugs, while others, most often the working poor, have nothing but out-of-pocket access to this generous array of generously priced pharmaceuticals. This difference is most starkly highlighted by the research you were alerted to earlier last year in the research of Dr. Booth, which pointed out that working-age Ontarians with insulin-dependent diabetes die at a higher rate than 65-plus-year-old insulin-dependent diabetics simply because the older folks have funded access to insulin. Needless to say, this is not an outcome witnessed under the New Zealand approach, and I would certainly hope that this is an outcome that can be dispatched in Canada before too long.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Len Webber

That's great. Thank you, Mr. Brougham. We appreciate your presentation.

We'll start with questions from Mr. Darshan Kang, in a first round of seven minutes.

February 14th, 2017 / 11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Brougham, thanks for shedding some light on New Zealand pharmacare.

Since you have worked on both sides, can you explain some of the strengths and weaknesses of the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health compared with the therapeutics advisory committee? How could Canada move forward to ensure we are making the most informed decisions for a national pharmacare formulary? You were talking about Ontario, but how could we move forward so everybody could benefit?

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

Health technology assessment, which is what the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health—or its acronym, CADTH—engages in, assesses pharmaceuticals in a manner very similar to that of other agencies around the world, including New Zealand. I would say, in actual fact, that the Canadian approach is very precise and very meticulous, probably at a higher quality than I experienced when I was in New Zealand.

Canada has at its disposal, right at the heart of its decision-making, extremely good information on which to make decisions about what to put into a formulary and what the costs and benefits of those options are, etc. It has that ability and it has the technology, if you like—the institution in place—to make that happen.

What it has is a large number of different purchasers around the country that take advantage of that information and use it in different ways. As yet, it doesn't have the ability to fully utilize that information for the purposes of creating a national pharmacare program, and that's not the fault of the HTA body, the health technology assessment body. That's the fault, if you want to call it a fault, of the structures we have in place in order to achieve some form of national consistency in our access to pharmaceuticals, and indeed to achieve universal access. All of the abilities are there in Canada. It's just a matter, in my view, of structuring them in a way that enables Canada to take advantage of them.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

In your opinion, what is needed, or can we lump all the approaches together? How much work do you think is already done in order to bring in pharmacare?

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

I've read the testimony and I work in this area, so I talk to a lot of people in this area. I think partly the question that you're driving at has to do with this broad tension that comes about through Canada's political environment, this federalism that essentially gives the role of making drugs available to Canadians to the provinces. As a result, you have this provincial-federal dynamic that one has to deal with, and let me be clear that this is nowhere near my forte. I have no particular strengths in this area, and in fact the testimony I read that was interesting was from Roy Romanow, basically saying that you have to practise the darker arts of federalism in order to make these things happen.

I think what it boils down to is essentially two options. Typically, Canada has achieved national programs by virtue of the federal government following the provincial governments' lead, and that seems to be an approach that Canada has been comfortable with over the years. As a result, you have one set of advisers saying to you that the way to move forward is to allow the provinces to provide universal access under their own steam, and then you have another set basically saying that this approach will result in a bunch of differences—not only differences in access, but differences in skill levels across the country, differences in prices, and that you'd be better off going for what you might describe as a big bang approach and trying to do it from the federal level down.

I can see a way to do it with the big bang approach because that's what I've grown up with, that's what I've lived with, and that's what I can understand. The dark arts of federal politics and the provincial-federal split that you have to practise here in Canada are not things I'm expert in, and I'm unable therefore to tell you which way to go.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you.

I understand that New Zealand has a copay of $5 per prescription. Have you studied whether the subsidies for low-income New Zealanders have been successful in ensuring that no one is prevented from accessing pharmacare?

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Also, are there any further difficulties with this model that would be useful for us to know about?

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

As I said, the copayments are low by international standards. They range from zero for under 13-year-olds to $5 per item on a scrip per month. As I said, once a household reaches $100 in any given annual period, it then has no copayments.

I would say that even with copayments at these levels, there are people who still struggle to fill a scrip. There are people who go get a scrip, walk out of the door, go to the pharmacy, and balk at the idea of paying $5. Some people are very poor.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Sorry, was that $5 per item, per drug? Let's say if I had—

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

If they had five items, it would be $25.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Darshan Singh Kang Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

It would be $25. Okay. You think that would be enough to make poor people not want to fill their prescriptions?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

I would say even $5 in some instances is $5 too much. I just wanted to be clear that even with those levels of copayments, you still create barriers for some people, and that's something you have to live with. It was at $3 until about two or three years ago, and it was at $5 before that.

Copayments act as a barrier. They're put in place to try to deal with problems of moral hazard. In this area, you really have to ask yourself a very hard question, and you have to ask it of economists: is there really moral hazard here? Is it something you really need in order to control overuse of prescribed medicines? I'm not sure that you do.

After that, I'm not sure if I'm out of time.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Len Webber

You've run out of time, but perhaps the next time the Liberal caucus is up for questioning, you can answer that question.

We'll move on to the Conservative caucus now, with Rachael Harder. You have seven minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'm actually giving my time to Colin Carrie.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, and I want to thank the witness for being here.

Unfortunately I missed your opening because I had to give a speech in the House, but my colleague raised something I'd like to return to. I think it was a 2013 survey by the Commonwealth Fund that indicated that 8% of Canadians with below-average incomes did not fill a prescription or skipped doses because of cost.

This system is being held up as a kind of poster child for our country to replicate, but my understanding is that in New Zealand it was 18% of people who skipped their doses because of cost. Can you comment on that?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

My answer is broadly the same as the answer I just gave to the previous committee member, which is that copayments—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

That's a problem we're trying to fix. What I'm trying to figure out is whether going to something like this will really solve it, and I guess what you're saying is not necessarily so, right?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

I'd be very careful with making comparisons across the different countries. First I'd want to have a look at the data and understand whether those differences are truly real. The other thing you'd want is to equate for general wealth across the two countries in order to understand if you're going to have those sorts of similar differences.

I don't think anyone here is really saying this is a model you should replicate holus-bolus here in Canada. If you missed my introductory remarks, they were about what New Zealand has to offer. What its experience teaches is essentially some of the structures you might need in place in order to get control of costs.

If you have a very careful look at moral hazard and whether or not it's really an issue with copayments here in Canada, you might find you don't need a copayment system.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Out of curiosity, I think the population of New Zealand is about 4.6 million. The population of one of our biggest areas—where I live, in the Durham region in the GTA—is about six million people.

In New Zealand, is it one central government body that makes decisions on health care, or do you hand that responsibility down to regional bodies? Is it one central authority?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

Well, it's a mixed model, so when it comes to pharmaceuticals, it's essentially one central agency that's making the decisions about what to put on the formulary and what not to put on the formulary. In fact, it's now been given the role of doing that across the hospital sector as well.

When you go outside of pharmaceuticals, it's a more complex system. You have 20...well, I think two or three of them have combined, so I think there are now about 19 different districts that are involved in the management of their health system, but by having a central agency control the pharmaceuticals, they're handing the responsibility to that central agency to do that within their districts.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Does the health care system in New Zealand have copayment as well for having a visit to your doctor, going to a clinic, or anything along those lines?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Matthew Brougham

Again, it depends on whether you're in a PHO—a primary health organization—or your socio-economic level.

However, no, when it comes to access to physician services, Canada enjoys better access to physician services than New Zealand.