Evidence of meeting #64 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was medical.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jacqueline Bogden  Assistant Deputy Minister, Cannabis Legalization and Regulation Branch, Department of Health
Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Kathy Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Community Safety and Countering Crime Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Commissioner Joanne Crampton  Federal Policing Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Diane Labelle  General Counsel, Health Canada Legal Services, Department of Justice
Eric Costen  Director General, Cannabis Legalization and Regulation Branch, Department of Health
Anne McLellan  Senior Advisor, Bennett Jones LLP, As an Individual
Mark Ware  Associate Professor, Department of Family Medicine, McGill University, As an Individual
Michael Spratt  Criminal Lawyer, Abergel Goldstein and Partners, As an Individual
David Johnston  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association for Pharmacy Distribution Management
Shelita Dattani  Director, Practice Development and Knowledge Translation, Canadian Pharmacists Association
Philippe Lucas  Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council
Keith Jones  Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance
Dale Tesarowski  Executive Director, Corporate Initiatives, Performance and Planning, Saskatchewan Ministry of Justice
Sébastien St. Louis  Member of Board of Directors, Cannabis Canada Association
Colette Rivet  Executive Director, Cannabis Canada Association
Robert Rae  Director, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance
Laurent Marcoux  President, Canadian Medical Association
Trevor Bhupsingh  Director General, Law Enforcement and Border Strategies Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Martin Bruce  Organized Crime Section, Vancouver Police Department
Jeff Blackmer  Vice-President, Medical Professionalism, Canadian Medical Association
Jennifer Lutfallah  Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Programs, Canada Border Services Agency
Sergeant Bill Speam  Organized Crime Section, Vancouver Police Department

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

—which is a good thing for medicinal use, although it's used mainly in food products.

Is there an actual, prescribed, medical hemp pill out there for people who are seeking it, such as people with schizophrenia or people with pediatric issues?

3:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council

Philippe Lucas

I just want to differentiate. I'm sure Mr. Jones would agree with this. There's a difference between hemp oil, which you can buy at the store right now—it is a great health supplement filled with antioxidants, omega-3, -6, and -9 —and CBD oil, which is actually made from the flower, or the trichomes on the flower.

The first one, the hemp oil, is made by the pressing of seed. The other is made from the trichomes or cannabinoids in the flower.

Some hemp has a higher CBD content and certainly could be used in the production of CBD medications, as it is in the U.S. and in Europe as well.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

Is the hemp industry as tightly regulated as the marijuana licensed producers are? Do you have security issues that you have to deal with and such? You mentioned the buds and the leaves, that you cannot harvest them at all. You have to incinerate them.

3:20 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

Keith Jones

Right. As a licensed cultivator of hemp, we have to apply for a licence every year, as do all the farmers who grow hemp and all the processors we can sell to. We can't sell our hemp seed or our hemp grain except to processors or buyers who also have a Health Canada licence. We apply every year for a Health Canada licence.

Today, under the industrial hemp regulations, we cannot collect the buds, the trichomes, the leaf bracts, or the flowers of the hemp plant because they tend to contain a higher level of any cannabinoids, whether it's THC or CBD.

The challenge that has created is that we're already producing a lot of CBD on our farm. We have phytosanitary standards. Plus, as a certified organic producer, we have a number of inspections and certifications, and we have to adhere to a number of standards and processes.

The hemp crop we grew on our farm this year produced likely in the area of 10,000 kilograms of CBD, but we had to spread it on the ground as chaff. We're prohibited under the industrial hemp regulations from harvesting the portion of the hemp plant that contains the CBD.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

That's interesting.

I have a very quick question for Ms. Rivet and Mr. St. Louis.

You mentioned that we have to be low in pricing in order to compete with the black market. I just can't see that happening, with all the regulations that are in place right now for licensed producers and the costs involved with that. The only way I can see you bringing those prices down is by having some type of government subsidization in order to compete with the black market. Would you not agree?

3:20 p.m.

Member of Board of Directors, Cannabis Canada Association

Sébastien St. Louis

Not entirely.

In terms of costing, we've already seen a huge decline in existing licensed producers' costs to produce. When we started about four years ago, the lowest price posted in the industry was about $2.55. Currently, you have the lowest price posted in the industry at $1.17 per gram.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB

Per gram.

3:25 p.m.

Member of Board of Directors, Cannabis Canada Association

Sébastien St. Louis

That is in terms of cost, and it does include quality control costs, which are part of the regulatory regime.

However, you touch on a point that I do agree with. There could be a second look, over time, with our hard-working regulators at loosening some of the regulation—for example, camera and video footage requirements, that on a single site a licensed producer can have upwards of 500 cameras, and so on. There is some low-hanging fruit that I think we could look at while always keeping, of course, public safety and diversion as a top priority.

We will be able to get sub-$1 cost per gram over the next little while as an industry. Of course, as we talk about the benefits to the medical community as well, a larger, more robust industry that includes both the medical and the adult-use market will see us at much larger scale. We should get some nice economies there as well.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

The time is up.

Mr. McKinnon.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, sir.

My first question is for Mr. Jones.

Hemp is cannabis sativa. It's the same genus or species. How do we tell it apart from the stuff that's producing all the fun and games for everybody?

3:25 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

Keith Jones

Health Canada has done a lot of work over the last 19 years since the industrial hemp regulations were put in place, including annual inspections of every field. As a licensed producer, we actually submit every year—up until this year—samples from our fields to confirm that the plant we're growing is in fact a hemp plant and not a marijuana plant, and that the variety we're using, which is on the list of approved cultivars, is actually what we're growing.

We grow a variety called FINOLA, which happens to be on the list of approved cultivars on which Health Canada has done the work and confirms consistently contains no more than 0.3% THC. Health Canada has already done the work to create the definition that differentiates between industrial hemp as authorized under the industrial hemp regulations and other forms of cannabis that might have higher levels of THC.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Is this a distinction that can be made by lay people? Do you have to be a botanist to be able to tell the difference?

3:25 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

Keith Jones

By looking at the plant, you can't tell. It's the same species, but the breeding has been fundamentally different. By the visual distinguishing characteristics of the physical plants, you couldn't tell the difference; you couldn't tell them apart.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

If we had a field of hemp blowing in the breeze, we couldn't tell if it was hemp or marijuana. Is that correct?

3:25 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

Keith Jones

Yes, that's correct.

3:25 p.m.

Robert Rae Director, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

There is a very big distinction between the two, in that a field of marijuana would only be female plants. If you have any male plants in a marijuana crop, you're not going to have a very good crop. It's counterproductive to try to do that.

The other point I want to make is that when the industrial hemp regulations were first created, back in 1998, there were some concerns because of the flowers and the buds, which tend to have higher THC levels. The plants nowadays have a lower threshold than what is required for the entire plant, so the point that Keith just made about having to throw the CBDs out on the ground is quite a waste, under the circumstances, because the whole plant is safe to use.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Would adding hemp to schedule 2 not take it out of the licensing regime, as well?

3:25 p.m.

Chair, Government Relations, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

Keith Jones

As we understand it, the industry would continue to operate within the paradigm of the industrial hemp regulations, which we support.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

I believe this legislation is going to replace the industrial hemp legislation. Is it not?

3:25 p.m.

Director, Canadian Hemp Trade Alliance

Robert Rae

I don't think so. I think the industrial hemp regulations are mentioned in the bill.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

I'll have to check on that. Thank you.

I'm going to move on to Mr. Lucas.

There's a lot of talk about access to medical marijuana, or medical cannabis versus access to recreational cannabis. It's as if they're two different things. Are they really two different things, or are we just talking about cannabis for medical use versus cannabis for recreational use?

3:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council

Philippe Lucas

I think it depends on the preparation. The answer is yes to both of those.

They are different in that, as we've discussed, CBD would typically not be desirable from a recreational point of view. That's not why people use recreational cannabis. In fact, the reason that we're only starting the research on CBD over the last five or six years, despite the fact it was discovered first over 40 years ago, is because there were no high CBD strains that were available in the recreational market initially. It's only the establishment of the medical system here in Canada and in the U.S. that has motivated people to breed and develop these high CBD strains that have become so efficacious for so many people now. That is a distinctive characteristic, in many ways, of medical cannabis. That's not to say that THC doesn't have therapeutic properties. It's a powerful analgesic and anti-inflammatory. It has a number of therapeutic properties in and of itself.

The same strain that can be used for recreational purposes can be used for medical purposes under some circumstances, but I think that there are quality control methods of ingestion, for example, that might be more distinguished for medical use versus recreational use. If you want a long-lasting, even effect, then oral ingestion makes the most sense for that. But, for example, for someone wanting rapid onset of effect—let's say you're suffering from a migraine and you're starting to get the auras or nausea associated with migraines—oral ingestion isn't going to make much sense. Vaporization, in those cases, or maybe an oro-mucosal spray would make the most sense.

There is also ongoing product development, for example, for patches that would be usable in terms of slow delivery of medicinal cannabinoids into the system. A lot of the research right now being done, not just by licensed producers in Canada but also by pharmaceutical companies around the world, is looking to modulate the endocannabinoid system that we all have in ourselves. That's quite different from the recreational use that we see where people are, for example, making high THC gummy bears.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

The time is up.

Mr. Davies.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Lucas, I want to ask a question about supply. The parliamentary budget officer has studied this and said that in 2018, Canadians aged 15 and over will consume an estimated 655 metric tonnes of cannabis. By 2021, this could rise to 734 metric tonnes. In terms of the present medicinal cannabis production—that's the only legal production—are we going to have enough producers licensed to meet demand legally on July 1, 2018?

3:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Medical Cannabis Council

Philippe Lucas

I don't think anyone would ever tell you we're going to meet demand on July 1, 2018. There are 55 licensed producers established right now, and at this time last year there were probably 25, so we are getting more and more folks online. Those licensed producers are expanding rapidly and moving into greenhouses in order to increase supply.

As was discussed this morning, one of the biggest challenges we saw in Washington state and in Colorado, despite a long lead time for legalization to be in place, was a shortage of supply. We've seen the same thing in Nevada recently as well.

I would expect to see some initial supply shortages, and then a regulation or a flatlining happening a few months down the road.

I think one of the bigger concerns is whether we're going to be able to incentivize people currently using the black market to move into the licit system. If it's taxed too highly, or if access is in any way more inconvenient or less affordable than it is through the black market, I think we're going to have a lot of trouble convincing people who are currently buying from the illicit market to move into the licit market. That's part of the task and responsibilities of this group and of the current government, to make sure that accessibility is not an obstacle.