Health Committee on Sept. 13th, 2017

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

—that's not the case, or it hasn't been established, then we could do more harm than good by promoting this narrative. That's what I'm saying.

[Dr. William J. Barakett]

Of course. You can't scare people. It's like telling an alcoholic, “You're going to die of cirrhosis”. He's not going to die of cirrhosis. The guy is going to have an automobile accident, he's going to make a thousand people miserable, and he'll never have a happy life. That's the message you have to deal with.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Exactly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you.

Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I don't run out of time with my own questions, I'll share with Dr. Carrie.

Dr. Barakett, you seem to know quite a bit about marijuana and its effects on people, so I have a lot of little questions that I was saving.

One of them is that Health Canada says that men who want a family shouldn't use cannabis. Why do they say that?

[Dr. William J. Barakett]

I'm sorry, Health Canada says what?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

They say that men who want to start a family shouldn't use cannabis. Why do they say that?

[Dr. William J. Barakett]

No. I think there was an old study that showed that there was a fall in sperm count and impotence, but I don't believe those things are true.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

The hemp producers have asked for an exemption from this cannabis legislation. Do you have any concern about that? They're saying that it's low THC content and so, you know, it's—

[Dr. William J. Barakett]

There are going to be the same rules. Kids shouldn't be using it. If they smoke enough of it, they're going to accumulate it in their brain and suffer similar effects. I don't think, if I had a young child at home, I'd enjoy having him walking around smoking hemp.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

All right.

The last question I have is about the possession amount. Thirty grams was set as the limit you could have when you are over 18.

[Dr. William J. Barakett]

This is dried cannabis, right?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Yes, it's dried cannabis. Do you have any concern about that amount? Depending on how you roll a joint.... It could be 60 grams....

[Dr. William J. Barakett]

As I said before, I rub shoulders with addicts all day long, every day. If they want something, they're going to get it. You can limit the amount, but how do you apply that sort of thing? It really is education and making people understand.

There is a whole notion that cannabis has had a free ride through the years because people have just said, “Oh well, it's only pot”. Well, I'm sorry, but there is far more to it than that. In youth it causes harm. In adults who are abusing, they're masking an underlying disorder.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay, very good. Thank you.

I'll turn it over to Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

I think you have far too much, three minutes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Okay, that's great to know because my colleague across the way did bring up a really important thing about credibility. I think, when you're talking about youth use of marijuana, we need to be honest, and we need to show the science behind it. That's one of the challenges I have with the government's approach to this bill because they're saying that they have to legalize because they want to decrease youth use. The evidence we're seeing in the committee here is that in Colorado and Washington that is not the case.

What we realize is that the government is going down this route, and we'd like to make this bill the best we possibly can, the best bill for Canadians to look after the health and safety of Canadians.

With your understanding of the bill, what do you think the federal government needs to address youth use of marijuana? Do you think this bill is the answer to solving the high usage amount among our youth, or do you think there has been a lack of certain things that need to be put into this bill?

I know I talked a little bit about the lack of education, the data collection, and the tools in the toolbox to get kids into some type of treatment. We really would like your advice, and I'd just like to go through the panel from Dr. Barakett across. If you could you help us make this a better bill, it would really be helpful.

[Dr. William J. Barakett]

I just see the bill as an opportunity to finally get out the information about cannabis and to dispel the myths that exist that it's a harmless substance, especially at the moment when we have already legalized medical use and people automatically draw the conclusion that all cannabis is the same and it's good for your health. We need to educate people. People just don't understand.

When I see an old lady of 80 years with rheumatoid arthritis and I put her on cannabis oil with a bit of THC, she's horrified until I explain, and then she is surprised when she comes back and she's no longer using painkillers.

[Marc Paris]

We know prohibition hasn't worked, so I think we need to do something else. I think getting to the root cause is one of the solutions, but also it's to break down those myths. When kids say to their parents, “Well, it's just a natural plant, Mom”, well that's when the parent has to say, “Well, so is poison ivy”. Not every natural plant is good for you. We just have to make that evidence based, so that they understand it's not a harmless drug and there are consequences, so that the kids have to make those informed decisions. We're going to make it 18. They're old enough to vote, to smoke, to drink, to drive a car, and borrow money for house. Even though their judgment's not totally fully developed, that's why we have to build up the information with them, so that they feel they're going to make a smart choice.

[Amy Porath]

CCSA was fortunate to visit Colorado and Washington state a couple of years ago to really hear from our colleagues to the south what were some of their experiences and lessons learned, and I know you heard from some of those witnesses yesterday. Just to reiterate, what we heard when we visited Washington and Colorado, and in some of the dialogue we had here today, is to have really strong upfront investment in prevention and public education and to really make sure we have targeted messages for different groups. We're going to need public education for youth, but we're also going to need it for their parents. We're going to need, beyond a mass media approach, that multi-faceted approach that I spoke to during my remarks: evidence-based programs in schools, community interventions, supports for parents. Anyone who's working with youth really needs to understand what the effects of cannabis are and how to have that discussion with young people, because it's not easy. I really commend Drug Free Kids Canada for its tool to help parents unpack that and really know how to start that conversation.

The other thing I would emphasize is really having resources for the implementation of the legislation. That's something we heard from a lot of the stakeholders when we went down to Washington and Colorado, making sure there's enough training for law enforcement, making sure there are resources put aside for prevention, but also for treatment, and we talked a bit about that as well, making sure we have that investment.

The other piece is research. As a researcher who's been studying cannabis for 16 years, I know there's a great deal we know, but there's so much we don't know. My organization led a two-day meeting last fall, where we pulled together 50 of the North American experts on cannabis to really start to map out some of the priority areas where we need further research. We're working collaboratively with CIHR and our partners at Health Canada and Public Safety to really start to move forward with that agenda. I'm actually going to a meeting next week in Montreal with CIHR.

Those are the points I would emphasize: we need investment for research, ongoing monitoring and evaluation, and prevention and public education.

Thank you.

[François Gagnon]

I do not want to repeat everything that my colleague said, and the INSPQ does not have the mandate to recommend anything other than what is already in its brief on Bill C-45. To elaborate somewhat, I would recommend including in the bill provisions to ensure there is absolutely no for-profit distribution system in Canada, but that would go well beyond the INSPQ's scope.

Nonetheless, that is essentially what we told Quebec officials when we recommended that they do everything in their power to prevent a for-profit model that would determine future regulatory options. The history of tobacco and alcohol is a history of commercialization. So the more that is done to limit commercialization, if not prevent it completely, the better it might be for public health.

[Maude Chapados]

Let me conclude by adding the following. You mentioned the data from Colorado. It is interesting that the increase was observed prior to legalization in 2014. Those figures are actually from 2009. The issue of non-medical cannabis arose in 2014. The whole commercialization of cannabis predates that, back to 2009, and increases can be seen.

Moreover, other reports indicate that it is not the change in legal status that leads to increased use, but rather the way it is regulated, whether that is decriminalization as is the case in Europe, or actual legalization of the consumption of non-medical cannabis. We must remember this and not demonize cannabis. This is important for the sake of consistency with the approach to alcohol and tobacco in particular.

The fact remains that cannabis is not an apple; it is not an ordinary commodity. That is why regulation is needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thanks very much. I want to compliment you, Dr. Carrie. You're learning from Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies, you have five minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

It's funny. It seems that our approach is legalize, regulate, discourage. That seems to be the general approach to this, which I think is appropriate, given everything we're hearing.

I want to come at it from the other point of view. There's a phrase that if you're out of step with the army, maybe it's not the army. I'm just wondering if we could spend a moment on some of the reasons millions of Canadians use cannabis responsibly. Much like some Canadians on a Friday night go home and have a beer or two or enjoy a couple of glasses of wine, there are clearly millions of Canadians who use marijuana because it's pleasurable, or maybe it helps them deal with some pain. These are the words of Dr. Neil Boyd, who was here the other day. I think that's a reality of why people use it. There are millions of people who do not experience the negative impacts we're describing. They don't experience psychosis. They don't lose their jobs. They're not getting into car accidents.

We haven't spent any time on that aspect of the education component of government policy as we go to legalize this product. Do we run the risk of losing credibility if we don't acknowledge some of that? I don't really have a cogent question. I'll just throw that out for your consideration and comment.