Evidence of meeting #68 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was edibles.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ryan Vandrey  Associate Professor, Johns Hopkins University, As an Individual
Daniel Vigil  Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment
Dana Larsen  Director, Sensible BC
Hilary Black  Founder, BC Compassion Club Society
Marcel Vandebeek  Administrator, BC Compassion Club Society
Jonathan Zaid  Executive Director, Canadians for Fair Access to Medical Marijuana
Daphnée Elisma  Quebec Representative, Canadians for Fair Access to Medical Marijuana
Jacqueline Bogden  Assistant Deputy Minister, Cannabis Legalization and Regulation Branch, Department of Health
David Pellmann  Executive Director, Office of Medical Cannabis, Department of Health
Lisa Holmes  President, Alberta Urban Municipalities Association
Marc Emery  Cannabis Culture
Jodie Emery  Cannabis Culture
Bill Karsten  Second Vice-President, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Brock Carlton  Chief Executive Officer, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

9:50 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

What are we waiting for? What else don't we know about the regulatory framework in Canada that would make it preferable to leave it totally unregulated right now, with none of those things, while we wait to learn exactly what about the regulations? I'm puzzled.

9:50 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

You could certainly make a reasonable argument to regulate and to perhaps be more restrictive at first and to allow more later. I think the danger in having looser restrictions is that you would later see that you wanted to tighten those up.

I would not unwaveringly argue that you have to wait. I would say that if you can get very solid regulations in place and do that quickly, then it should be fine.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

That's my question. Does Colorado have solid regulations or does it not?

9:50 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

I think we have solid regulations. I think we have some room for improvement still.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Sure.

Mr. Larson, I think we've heard lots of evidence about the damage criminalization has done to Canadians. Many of the harms associated with cannabis are directly related to the criminalization of cannabis, not cannabis itself. Bill C-45, I think we all would acknowledge, makes progress, but it retains a criminalized approach. There are criminal sanctions for possession over 30 grams, criminal sanctions for growing over four plants of over 100 centimetres, criminal sanctions over selling, punishable by penalties of up to 14 years.

If criminalization has failed and caused harm, won't Bill C-45 continue to do that at least to some degree?

9:50 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

Absolutely. There is more criminalization in this bill than we already have in some areas, and that 14-year penalty also means there are no conditional discharges available as well, which I think is a big concern.

Speaking as a member of the cannabis movement, I know that we don't really need the government's help in getting high-quality cannabis products. We just want the government to stop arresting people, and that really should be the focus of this legislation. It's shameful to me that we haven't decriminalized cannabis possession already, that this wasn't a big priority and it hasn't happened yet, but that is the flaw in this legislation, and it's treating cannabis much more severely than alcohol is treated. Yet by any measure, cannabis is safer than alcohol, and I think that everybody who has testified would agree with that idea.

If we're going to restrict cannabis more than alcohol, that will drive people towards alcohol. If we're going to restrict advertising and packaging and all these things for cannabis more than we do for alcohol, that means we're saying we want people to drink alcohol instead of using cannabis, and I think it should be the other way around. The idea that we've made mistakes with alcohol and it's too available so we're going to tighten up with cannabis is absolutely backwards. Cannabis is safer and should be treated like that. To continue to criminalize people because of the cannabis they have on them, or any of this, is entirely the wrong way to go.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Okay, thanks very much. That completes our normal round of questioning.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Yes, Chair, I'd like to move to seek unanimous consent to have another round, because we have about half an hour left.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Do we have unanimous consent for another round?

We have unanimous consent.

Mr. McKinnon.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Larsen, I'd like to find the low-hanging fruit, if you will, about edibles. In your shop and in your experience with other shops, what do people want? What are the most popular products, say, perhaps, your top three sellers?

9:55 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

It really depends on what they're looking for. Some people just want to feel good and get high, and some people have a medicinal need. They have pain or they have cancer or a systemic ailment, and they need a different kind of treatment. So it really depends, but edibles are less used recreationally because of the fact that they can be stronger, and because of the difficulty of titrating the dose. Most people I know who use cannabis smoke it primarily or use extracts as well. That's something that I keep trying to bring up, that isn't part of this conversation, things like shatter or hash or other forms of inhalable cannabis that are made. Those are also very popular as well, and they allow you to smoke less cannabis to get the same effect. If we're concerned about smoking, if you have one hit off one thing or you have to smoke a whole bunch of something else, probably the stronger one is the safer one in that regard.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

We're trying to talk about edibles here.

9:55 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

With edibles, the question is what do people seek or why are they taking edibles?

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

No, what are the most popular?

9:55 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

The most popular edibles are things that taste good. People like treats. They don't really want to take capsules or things if they can have something that's yummy. We definitely sell more things that are delicious than things that are less tasty, absolutely. That's just human nature.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

We can't really come up with legislation that says “let's regulate treats.” We need something a little more specific, if you can.

9:55 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

You could put cannabis into all kinds of food products. Some people like to buy infused butter so they can add it to their own food and put it on toast or put it into foods themselves.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Do you sell a lot of infused butter?

9:55 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

We sell infused butter; we sell infused oils; and we sell different kinds of edible products. We sell savoury things as well, but normally they're kind of snack foods.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

What are the top three edible products that you sell?

9:55 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

I'll have to think about that a little bit. We sell some drops that are very popular; those aren't really edibles. They're drops made with infused hempseed oil. They're like an edible.

I would say that cookies are incredibly popular, and people like different kinds of cookies. We sell a fair amount of CBD products that have very low or no psychoactivity but have medicinal benefit. CBD edibles are becoming more and more popular as well.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Okay. With regard to home-grow or personal cultivation, one of the concerns is the potential for diversion to the illegal market. Do you see that the regulations limiting the number of plants and so forth are necessary to prevent that diversion, and will they in fact prevent that diversion?

9:55 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

It depends on what you mean by “diversion”. It's hard to sell the cannabis you're going to get from four one-metre plants. You're not going to get that much, but certainly, sharing it with your friends, I think that'll happen.

If you really want to stop people from diverting cannabis, make it cheap. The only reason that people grow and sell cannabis is that it's very expensive and very profitable when this plant is worth $5 to $10 a gram. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. If I can grow a plant in my home that's worth $1,000 and then sell it.... People are going to do that.

The way to stop diversion and to get people to not be doing that is simply to make cannabis much more affordable, to make the price lower, to where it should be for a natural product. It's the only plant we sell by the gram, and not by the pound, so I would like to see cannabis at $1 a gram or something like that. It's still an incredibly high price for a little bit of plant matter, but if there's no profit in it, that would eliminate the vast majority of diversion. If legal cannabis maintains the same price structure as illegal cannabis, then the illegal market will continue. That's just how it's going to be because of the profitability. That's the real question.

I think most people growing four plants at home are going to grow it for themselves or to share with their friends and family. They're not going to be selling it, because the profit margin isn't that great for just a few plants. You're going to want to have a bigger grow to really satisfy the underground market. I think that's where most of the underground market will remain.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Let's go back to packaging, if I have time. For the edible products you sell, what's the packaging like? Are these like home-cooked products or are they manufactured in some way?