Evidence of meeting #68 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was edibles.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ryan Vandrey  Associate Professor, Johns Hopkins University, As an Individual
Daniel Vigil  Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment
Dana Larsen  Director, Sensible BC
Hilary Black  Founder, BC Compassion Club Society
Marcel Vandebeek  Administrator, BC Compassion Club Society
Jonathan Zaid  Executive Director, Canadians for Fair Access to Medical Marijuana
Daphnée Elisma  Quebec Representative, Canadians for Fair Access to Medical Marijuana
Jacqueline Bogden  Assistant Deputy Minister, Cannabis Legalization and Regulation Branch, Department of Health
David Pellmann  Executive Director, Office of Medical Cannabis, Department of Health
Lisa Holmes  President, Alberta Urban Municipalities Association
Marc Emery  Cannabis Culture
Jodie Emery  Cannabis Culture
Bill Karsten  Second Vice-President, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Brock Carlton  Chief Executive Officer, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

9 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

That's a very good question, and I don't have a clear answer for you. I think packaging is very important, along with education, to not leave cookies lying outside of a package, as that would obviously be appealing. Not using the type of packaging that a child might want to really get into is important.

In Colorado, we had to put in place some regulations after the fact. They can't be in the shape of humans or animals or fruits; that's a start. But finding where the best line is ultimately is difficult.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Thank you; that's fine.

Concerning how much of a dose is reasonable, I've heard conversations suggesting that people sometimes take too much because of the delay time. What is the delay time, and how much is a reasonable dose for a person of x weight.

Mr. Vandrey?

9 a.m.

Prof. Ryan Vandrey

In terms of the delay in time, typically you have the onset of effects of an edible after about 30 minutes. The peak effects happen about an hour and a half later and are sustained until about three hours after administration. The total duration of effects is about six to eight hours. That duration is determined by the dose.

Exactly what is a unit dose is an important question. In Colorado and in other states in the U.S., it's been established that 10 milligrams is a maximum dose, but lower doses are available as well. It's going to be different across individuals.

Body weight isn't necessarily an important characteristic in terms of defining the effect of a dose. There are sex differences in response to cannabis. Females tend to be more sensitive to its effects than males are. I don't think there's enough data to determine what an appropriate unit dose is.

In my lab, we've tested 10-, 25-, and 50-milligram doses in healthy adults. Ten milligrams produces a drug effect without a lot of impairment. But again, that's healthy young adults. In someone who's 65 or 70, that may be different. In someone who has a certain genetic predisposition, where they metabolize the drug differently, that may be different. Again, my studies were done with a total of 35 people, so it's hard for me to say exactly what that right dose is.

Colorado uses 10 milligrams. Perhaps Mr. Vigil can talk about any issues they've had with that unit dose in Colorado.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Before we go there, I want to ask you one more question.

One of the concerns we've heard about a home-grow is that there is no quality control, and so the potency can be different. If you're baking your brownies at home from your home-grow.... Have you any experience in terms of the relative percentage of overdoses or other problems we see with that?

9 a.m.

Prof. Ryan Vandrey

The issue there is you have to test the product you're using to make the brownies, or whatever it is you're making. You have to know the potency in order to determine the dose you're putting into the product.

The other thing is you have to either make each individual brownie with a known amount of cannabis or have some kind of manufacturing process to ensure even distribution of the drug throughout a batch. You can't just throw cannabis on a brownie sheet, cut it up, and expect the same amount to be in each brownie. There are clear manufacturing and testing practices that have to be put in place.

Home-grow doesn't have any of that. Your home-grow person is not going to be testing the potency of their plant material, testing each individual whatever-it-is that they make. That's a crapshoot in terms of dosing.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Absolutely. Out of control.

9:05 a.m.

Prof. Ryan Vandrey

My guess is you're not going to roll out, at the national level, open retail sales of homegrown product. There need to be standards for manufacturing, production, and testing.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

I hope we won't even allow it because of the hazard for the people in the home.

Mr. Vigil, do you have any experience from the Colorado time frame with people in the home-grows? I know you did that.

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

We do allow a large amount of home-grow, in particular for medical patients, with an extended plant count. Unfortunately, our data is not able to distinguish whether a poison centre call or an emergency department visit is related to homegrown or store-bought. I would certainly agree with Mr. Vandrey that a regulated market is going to be safer from that standpoint.

Those individuals who are growing at home and making their own concentrates and edible products are very likely fairly experienced with it and less likely to get into problems over having too much.

The last point I want to make is this: where is the product that more naive users are using going to come from? The more availability there is on a regulated market, the less likelihood there is of that product coming from a black market, where it may be much less clear what's in it, and it is potentially more dangerous.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Do you have statistics on any of the medical calls resulting from edibles or overdoses from edibles, or anything from Colorado?

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

Yes. We have seen an increase in poison centre calls and emergency department visits related to marijuana following legalization, and even somewhat prior with the commercialization of medical marijuana.

In the poison centre calls, we are able to distinguish edible from smokable. We can't do that right now in the emergency department visits. For adults, it's about equal numbers between edible and smokable products, which is actually disproportionate because more product is smoked in Colorado.

So there is some increased concern with edibles.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

There is relatively more overdosing from edibles.

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

Right. Then, of course, among children zero to eight, the majority are edible products.

9:05 a.m.

Director, Sensible BC

Dana Larsen

Is it possible that people are just more comfortable going to a hospital and saying they use cannabis since it became legal than they were beforehand? Maybe there's not an increase in actual overdoses or people taking too much, but simply an increase in the number of people who are going to go to a hospital and talk about it. Beforehand, they could have been criminally charged if they said they were using cannabis.

Is that a possibility, or something you've looked at?

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

Is it okay to...?

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

No. Time's up. We have to go to Mr. Davies.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you. Mr. Vigil, one of the premises of our question is that if we don't legalize edibles, people aren't going to be using them, manufacturing them, selling them, or distributing them. That's not the case, is it?

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

It's unlikely that whoever is producing these products now, particularly if there are criminal elements, is producing edibles in childproof packages. Would you agree with that?

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

I agree, yes.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

The Canadian task force that looked at this recommended, for a number of reasons, that this government legalize edibles, concentrates, and other non-smokable products precisely for those reasons. You're saying, if I understand your evidence correctly, that it's better to regulate those products so we can try to control dosage, childproof packaging, single-serving, stamped products to minimize the harm. Do I have that correct?

9:05 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

Yes, that's correct.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

We heard evidence that Colorado initially legalized edibles, had some problems with it, understood the problems, and came back and brought in further regulations on edibles. Is that correct?

9:10 a.m.

Manager, Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research, Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment

Dr. Daniel Vigil

That's correct, yes.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

How's it working now? Have they addressed some of those early concerns that originally happened from the legalization of edibles?