Evidence of meeting #85 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sugar.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Manuel Arango  Director, Health Policy and Advocacy, Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada
Joanne Lewis  Director, Nutrition and Health Eating, Diabetes Canada
Benoît Lamarche  Chair in nutrition, Université Laval, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. David Gagnon

4:10 p.m.

Director, Nutrition and Health Eating, Diabetes Canada

Joanne Lewis

I'll take that. Dr. Lamarche might want to add more later.

As a dietitian, products like Ensure, Boost, and other similar products—Glucerna—have been pretty much reserved for people who are unable to eat whole foods. In the past, they were reserved for individuals who were just not well enough to consume whole foods on a regular basis. They were supplementary calories or a meal replacement for somebody who is elderly and unable to consume whole food. In recent years, they've taken on a whole new direction, with the understanding, or misunderstanding, that it's just as good as having a whole food breakfast or a whole food snack. I certainly would not suggest that it's a great alternative.

I'm guilty as charged. Once in a while, if I don't have time to plan something for breakfast, I'll grab one and go. I think that's fine. It's when these things become the norm, that's absolutely not recommended.

Certainly when you look at food, it is more than just a bunch of nutrients. It's a bunch of nutrients put together in some kind of cohesive format. When you isolate those nutrients and put them in a beverage—amino acids, various carbohydrates, whatever it is—you're losing something. If a whole food is healthy—the sum of its parts—and you take it out and you put into a liquid, is it still healthy? I don't think we have evidence to prove that it is as healthy.

I think we've seen various scientific research that has showed us that when you pull something out of the food and you give it in a capsule.... Is it going to have the same health outcomes? No, because that something was part of a bigger something, and it's all those things working together that make it a healthy food.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

We have to move now to Mr. Berthold.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses, whose testimony was rather eloquent.

I am the critic and phantom minister for agriculture and agri-food. We can all agree that the agriculture and agri-food industry plays a major role in the Canadian diet. Unlike money, which doesn't grow on trees, food grows in fields. Agricultural products have to be looked after and processed.

Mr. Arango, I liked one of your comments. You said you wished food manufacturers would innovate. You are sure that those people should have a say in the development of the new food guide. They can actually help contribute to improving the Canadian diet.

Ms. Lewis, although I am getting a bit off topic, I want to thank you, as well as the other Diabetes Canada representatives, for the important work you have done with the opposition parties on the tax credits for people with type 1 diabetes. Together, we have managed to have the government listen to reason. Today, hundreds of people are very happy with the work we have done together.

I want to thank the government for changing its position in this case. It is a good thing that the Liberals have recognized that a step in the wrong direction was made.

Mr. Lamarche, I will give you an opportunity to speak a little French. I am sure it will be good for you. During your presentation, you mentioned science several times. I got the impression that, in your opinion, a number of other elements should be taken into account before the next food guide is developed and distributed. Am I wrong?

4:15 p.m.

Chair in nutrition, Université Laval, As an Individual

Dr. Benoît Lamarche

No. I think that, in a number of cases, the claims being made are a bit premature. The general principles make sense, but some details are not specifically substantiated by research. I will again give the example of the recommendation on high-fat or low-fat products. I don't think it makes a difference whether Canadians consume low-fat or high-fat dairy products.

As a researcher, my role is to check whether the recommendation that people consume low-fat dairy products is evidence-based. I combed through the literature and did not find any research claiming that it is preferable to consume low-fat yogourt over high-fat yogourt. Other people around the world—I gave the example of the Netherlands—have come to the same conclusion. The same could be said for cheese.

Does science show that low-fat cheese is healthier than high-fat cheese? We don't have the answer, but a recommendation was made to that effect. I feel that the value of scientific data is being stretched in some cases.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

I completely agree with you, Mr. Lamarche. That is why I am here today.

People have done a lot of work and research on nutrition, food and food processing. Those people are agri-food industry stakeholders and farmers. Institutes for research on agriculture have conducted clear research. There has been a tremendous amount of research on food. Unfortunately, from what I see, the Standing Committee on Health has planned two meetings to discuss Canada's Food Guide. However, there aren't any witnesses from the agri-food industry or the agricultural sector. To me, that's unbelievable.

The Conservative Party of Canada is very close to the rural world, and it believes that food should come from Canada's regions. We think that those people have a say in this study. We would have really liked to hear their testimony and their explanations on how they process food and what the level of research on food processing is. We would have liked to know where we are headed. I think all those people want what is best for Canadians.

For example, we talked about juice. Is it a matter of quantity or is juice itself bad? People could have come to explain what stage the research in this area is at. That is why, Mr. Chair, I will move the following motion:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Health extend its study on Canada's Food Guide, and hear specifically from agriculture and agri-food stakeholders; and that the Committee report its findings to the House prior to the release of Part 1 of the new dietary guidance policy report.

Mr. Chair, I will let you distribute the motion. If I may, I will explain why I have put it forward.

I hope the witnesses understand that I have to make this extremely important presentation. It is not only for agriculture and agri-food sectors, but also for Canadians who expect the next food guide to contain all the information and take into account all the scientific data at their disposal, including data from the very sector that ensures that we have food to put on our plate and eat every week. Perhaps we could learn from those companies what efforts are being made in this direction.

Mr. Chair, the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, of which I am a member, has studied the food policy. A report was tabled last week in the House of Commons. I would like to talk to you about an element of that report that seems very relevant to me. By the way, the report was adopted unanimously by the committee members. The Liberals, the New Democrats and the Conservatives agreed on the entire report and on some of the recommendations.

The recommendation I want to discuss is about building bridges between producers and consumers. In food policy, it is important for people to know what they are eating, where it comes from and why they are eating it. In our study, witnesses pointed out that there was a great divide between producers and consumers because consumers are often unaware of how food is produced. We believe that public confidence is one of the priority principles of the agriculture and agri-food sector. In the report, we highlight the fact that farmers are proactive in this area. They organize visits to their farms and invite Canadians to meet with them to better understand how they produce food. The executive director of the Canadian Association of Fairs and Exhibits said that agricultural fairs are the ideal meeting place for the agricultural community and people from the city who want to know and understand where their food comes from. That is crucial.

You were talking about the Mediterranean diet earlier. I have visited Mediterranean countries, where I saw that people eat a lot of cheese. If there is one place where people eat a lot of cheese, it is around the Mediterranean. However, I did not see many obesity problems in the places I visited over there.

People don't have to go very far, since producers are close to markets. Consumers can talk to producers daily. That closeness to producers does not exist here, and I think it would be important to create it.

According to a number of witnesses who have participated in our study, education is key in food policy to building those kinds of relationships between producers and consumers. According to some, the food policy can provide an opportunity to refute various myths on modern agriculture and promote the sector as a producer of food in a responsible and environmental friendly way that also focuses on animal welfare.

I have actually been told that those concerns were taken into account when the food guide was developed. The guide is about the health Canadians, but it wants to take their impact on the environment into account. So it would be important for producers to come tell the committee members how hard they have been working, for years, to minimize the impact of their production on the environment.

Allow me to read a quote:

If designed and implemented properly, Canada's food policy has an opportunity to bridge the gap between the Canadian public and modern Canadian agriculture. As an industry, we understand that building public trust is very important, and that we need to reconnect with consumers and the public. This initiative has the potential to bring the public and farmers and ranchers together to find shared values in Canada's food and agricultural systems.

That statement was made by Dan Darling, President of the Canadian Cattlemen's Association.

Why don't the members of this committee want Mr. Darling to come talk to them about the efforts those people are making to build bridges with Canadians and to understand their tendencies?

Canadians want to eat better, and ranchers know that. If they want to continue to sell their products, they have to adapt. I would have liked for the committee members to take a few minutes to hear from the representatives of the Canadian Cattlemen's Association.

The food guide also talks about labelling. That is causing a lot of concern in the industry among retailers and dairy producers because they don't know what will be put forward. However, Mr. Arango told us earlier that people wanted very specific facts and figures to know what they are eating. I think that all producers and other stakeholders from the agri-food sector agree on that. They want to avoid disincentives that may lead to people being just as afraid of consuming a food product as of buying a cleaning product. This is a source of concern. I believe that those people would have wanted to come share their position on labelling.

Mr. Arango's foundation is working very hard with retailers to find a balance. That would make it possible to provide people with information on what they are eating and to prevent heart disease. Unfortunately, this committee does not seem to be interested in people from the agri-food industry explaining to them the consequences poor labelling may have on consumer choice. I would have liked those people to come explain to you that consumers' choices that are meant to be informed are not really informed

Mr. Lamarche, who is a research chair in nutrition at the Université Laval, told us earlier that, if we were not careful, some products would not be labelled correctly and they could be more harmful to health than some labelled products because they contain natural sugar. So that is a major issue.

I think it would be important for the committee and you, Mr. Chair, to give those people an opportunity to share their opinion on those issues.

The recommendation of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food reads as follows:

The Committee recommends that the new food guide be informed by the food policy and include peer-reviewed, scientific evidence and that the Government work with the agriculture and agri-food sector to endure alignment and competitiveness for domestic industries.

It's simple. Another House of Commons committee, made up of Liberals, Conservatives and New Democrats adopted this recommendation unanimously. No one was against it. All the Liberals accepted it. The report was tabled and has been well received.

Since the food guide is related to health, I sincerely believe that its consideration is the responsibility of the Standing Committee on Health, which could follow up on that recommendation with the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

As I already said, I am moving this motion today to give producers, ranchers and dairy farmers an opportunity to be heard.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, the practice of this committee, of which my honourable colleague is not a permanent member, is that when we discuss witnesses for committee business, we go in camera. In his motion, he's now talking about specific witnesses and sectors that he wants to come before committee. Our practice is to have committee business discussed in public, except when we talk about specific witnesses. If he's going to continue this motion, I would move that we go in camera at this point.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

I ask the member if he's going to continue to talk about certain industries, organizations, or people.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

I won't talk about witnesses anymore, but I will still talk about producers' concerns. I actually think that, as a member of Parliament, I have the responsibility to communicate, where appropriate, comments we have heard in meetings of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food about Canada's Food Guide. So I will continue to talk about the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, whereby it is important for the new food guide to be informed by the food policy.

The members of the Standing Committee on Health received a submission from the Dairy Farmers of Canada.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I move that the debate be now adjourned.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Chair, I have the floor.

You cannot do that. So I will continue what I was saying. Thank you very much.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I believe there's a committee requirement that a motion be tabled 24 hours in advance before debate on it ensues. We've just received this motion now. We have our witnesses here, and they've come a long way. They are providing expert advice to us on a very important topic for all Canadians. I'm a bit disappointed that our member here has decided to make an issue out of one sector when we have very important nutrition and dietitian advice and issues that we need to be hearing from our witnesses.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

I have the floor, Mr. Chair.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON

I think the reason we have a 24-hour requirement is to give us time to consider motions and be prepared to debate them. I believe this presentation right now is not consistent with the rules.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

We've discussed this, and the motion is on the topic we're discussing. He had the floor so he can move the motion.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON

May I ask the clerk to confirm that, please?

4:30 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. David Gagnon

Yes. It's 48 hours' notice unless it deals with the matter under consideration.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

It is an exception, though, when somebody comes and tells us another committee is telling what this committee is supposed to study. We choose our own subjects here in this committee.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

John Oliver Liberal Oakville, ON

Can I move that we go in camera for this discussion, then?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

If we're going to discuss any areas that he's already discussed or continues in that vein, I will go in camera.

Yes, Mr. Davies.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

On the point of order, the motion itself deals with witnesses. The motion itself is, “That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Health extend its study on Canada's Food Guide, and hear specifically from agriculture and agri-food stakeholders....”

I don't see how we can be discussing this motion at all if not in camera. The motion itself deals with stakeholders and witnesses. I don't think it's appropriate to be having this discussion in public in which, once my honourable colleague cedes the floor, if he intends on doing that at the meeting, it invites us to comment favourably or unfavourably on the motion on particular witness groups, which should absolutely be in camera.

I move that we go in camera immediately because the entire motion deals with that.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

I agree with that.

I just want to ask the member, are you almost done?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Two minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bill Casey

Two minutes. Will you...?

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

I'm sorry, there's a motion.

With respect, it doesn't matter to me if he takes two or 20 minutes. The motion is either in camera or it's not.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Chair, I ask for the vote right now.

If people don't want to vote now, I will take that as a refusal.