Health Committee on Feb. 14th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Respond very quickly, please.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I think, once again, we're talking about apples and oranges here. I think we have to be very, very clear. We are moving forward with Bill S-5 with respect to the issue of flavour. We want to make sure that there are strict restrictions in place to ensure that in no way will these products be attractive to children.

We also recognize, however, that there are benefits to adults who choose to use these products. Going from smoking to using vaping products, the evidence is clear that it's less harmful. That is why we're moving forward with this balanced type of regime to ensure that we can offer the products to those who need it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Oliver, you have five minutes.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much for being here. Welcome back to the health committee.

There's been a good discussion already about the balancing act that's here in Bill S-5. One one hand, we want to get our youth away from nicotine and away from tobacco. We don't want them to be enticed or brought in to become addicted to nicotine. For me, that is the number one priority. I've heard you say that as well. That is, to me, what must happen, and that's what Bill S-5 is continuing to further.

We have a second item, though, which is trying to move adults who have tobacco smoking habits onto a healthier way of consuming nicotine than smoking. Those are the competing agendas. Personally, I don't think the balance is there. I think you've mentioned a few times that you think it's there, so I was delighted to hear that you're entertaining an amendment on lifestyle. I think that's a very important one, so thank you for that.

My second point, though, is on location of advertising and location for vapour product advertising. I have a 13-year-old son. I don't want to be at my neighbourhood bus stop with him with a vaping advertisement on my local bus stop. I don't want to go to the movie theatre and try to explain what vaping is and why vaping is a product that's being advertised. I don't want to go to the local hockey rink and explain to him what vaping is and why it's done. Location is a critical issue. I believe that, with the way it's set up now, we're going to be exposing young Canadians to vape products when we don't have to.

The Canadian Cancer Society was very strong on this one. What they said about Bill S-5 was that the vaping restrictions are weaker than the Tobacco Act and Bill C-45 for cannabis, that the vaping product advertising restrictions are weaker than in almost every other developed country except for the United States, and—these are all location advertising—the provisions regarding the location of vaping advertising are so weak that they resemble those of the 1964 tobacco industry advertising.

I guess my question to you is this. Would you please consider an amendment—and I'd like to bring one forward—that also restricts the location of advertising for vaping? I think there are lots of ways to communicate to adults who are smokers that vaping is a better way to consume nicotine, other than putting it on hockey rink boards. Would you consider an amendment on location?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Yes, as you have indicated with regard to the lifestyle advertisement, I'm very open to an amendment on that, as we've heard a lot of testimony on that over the past few weeks. I would welcome that type of amendment because we certainly want to make sure we are in no way encouraging non-smokers, non-vaping users, to get into that.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

What about location?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

With regard to where the factual information on vaping can be placed—and once again it's not an advertisement promoting the product—I've been advised that we have extensive regulatory powers to choose where that information can be posted.

[John Oliver, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Why wouldn't we just restrict it to the point of sale? I don't see a need for that advertising. I haven't mentioned it, but what worries me is the Cancer Society also wanted to make sure there were restrictions on brand preference advertising. Even though you're stopping lifestyle, you're going to get promotion of vaping products with branding and in other ways. The cigarette industry has learned to do this stuff like nobody else on the planet. They can make a product look exciting. I saw little cigarettes that were glittery and looked like a tube of lipstick.

I think if we don't restrict location, we're going to see exciting vaping products on hockey rinks and all over our communities, just because they have been marketed that way, although they are not really lifestyle. I would encourage you again to think about accepting an amendment on location.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Again, as indicated, with respect to the regulations in place, we have the authority to restrict where that marketing is going to be. I think as well we have to strike that balance because we also want to target individual smokers. We want them to be able to move on to the vaping alternative.

Again, as I've indicated, in no way am I saying that vaping is harmless. We know harm is associated with it, but we also recognize that tobacco use is even more dangerous. That is why it's important for us to strike that balance between the two.

It's a point very well taken, and that is why we do have the power within our regulations to be able to choose those locations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thank you very much.

Now we go to Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for appearing.

I want to talk a bit about young people and vaping. I'm very concerned that young people are going to see vaping, because you will be able to vape wherever you can smoke. We heard some very disturbing statistics in our previous testimony about the number of young people who have already tried vaping and the likelihood that once they get vaping, they will begin smoking.

If I look at the existing situation, we have these illegal vape shops, and when the regulations are brought in to regulate the industry.... They have not had a great track record keeping these things out of the hands of children. The convenience stores on the other hand have a very good track record in making sure they check age before they sell tobacco products.

What are we going to do in inspection, auditing, or whatever on these vaping operations that are illegal today, and will we allow the convenience stores to participate in vaping sales?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

You bring up some very good points, Ms. Gladu.

Protecting youth is a priority of mine as health minister. We recognize at this point that the vaping industry in Canada is worth millions of dollars.

We recognize people are selling products all over the place. The products they purchase are unregulated. We don't know where they come from, and there are no requirements for the devices they use to vape.

That is why Bill S-5 is so important because we certainly want to make sure the rules are put in place to control these types of products. Keeping it out of the hands of our children is a priority. That is why setting the minimum age of 18 for youth consumption is a step in the right direction because, as you have indicated, we certainly want to make sure the area for their access to it is going to be extremely limited.

With regard to the sales of the products, I'm going to be frank. I'm going to have to turn it over to one of my officials, Denis, as to exactly where it's going to be sold because I don't have the specific details.

[Denis Choinière, Director, Tobacco Products Regulatory Office, Department of Health]

We have eight provinces that already have measures in place for limiting sales to youth of vaping products. What we do nationally is establish a minimum across the country. Already there have been measures put in place in a number of provinces. They have tobacco inspectors. We also have tobacco inspectors. As I said on tobacco before, we'll be working together as well on vaping. Some provinces will have the ability to decide who will sell tobacco products and vaping products. For example, many provinces have banned the sale of tobacco products in hospitals, schools, universities, and so forth. On vaping products, they will also have to decide where those sales will be taking place. It's not something we would do federally.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

I'll go back to the minister. Did I understand you correctly? Did you say that in terms of the vaping of marijuana, that won't be allowed until one year after Bill C-45 is implemented?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Correct. With respect to the issue of being able to vape marijuana, that would be considered a concentrated type of product. That would only be available a year after the coming into force of Bill C-45. It's very much like edibles. We recognize that when we've had conversations or testimony—we've heard testimony from our colleagues in Colorado—

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

That's okay. I get it.

I want to go back to the contraband issue and the protections.

We heard about the 17 different technologies that go into the CRA excise stamps, but there was also a suggestion that using an alphanumeric marker on the individual sticks might be helpful. What are the other protection technologies that you're considering? We did hear the contraband market is, conservatively, 30% in Canada; and in some places, like in my riding, it's just rife.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Once again, as I indicated earlier, we take the issue of contraband extremely seriously. With respect to the details, with respect to the stamping of the products, I'm going to have to turn it over to one of my colleagues here.

[James Van Loon, Director General, Tobacco Control Directorate, Department of Health]

We do take that very seriously. First of all, I would say, again, that we don't see any evidence that plain and standardized packaging contributes to the problem of illicit trade. This is what we hear from the other regulators who've moved down the way. We do see evidence that it reduces the appeal of the products, especially to young people.

On the topic of how to deal with the problem of contraband, we agree this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Over the last five years, the government spent $43 million working on the contraband issue through various partnerships, with Public Safety, the RCMP, CBSA, and various other police forces.

On the tax stamps, they have overt and covert markings, absolutely. Bill S-5 provides us with the authority to require alphanumeric stamping on individual tobacco products. That would help with tracking.

Finally, when I look at the Australian model, they have allowed covert marks on the packs by industry. That's something we're looking at and considering as we figure out what the regulations will actually say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thanks very much.

Now we go to Ms. Sidhu for five minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today.

Certainly we want to reduce the number of people who use tobacco products. You said— even the Cancer Society—that there's some evidence that the impact of tobacco is reduced when using vaping products. What kind of research has been done to ensure these products are safe? Two, what are the plans for ongoing research to track the safety of these products?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Once again, we recognize that the vaping industry is a very new industry. As a result, the research is fairly new as well, but we certainly continue to monitor all research that's available. What we see thus far is that vaping products show that they are safer than tobacco use. Again, we're not saying that vaping is without any harms associated with it, but we certainly recognize, when we look at the level of risk, that it's less harmful than tobacco use.

With respect to vaping, we continue to invest in that area. In the area of CIHR, there is some investment, some research, that is presently being done there. Again, we continue to monitor all the research because we certainly want to make sure that if there are any changes needed, we want to be able to address that very quickly.

We continue to look at all of the research that is out there, and we continue to invest in that area as well.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Okay.

One of the stated targets in the new tobacco control measures is to reduce the rate of tobacco use to less than 5% by 2035. Could you please tell us how you and your department are approaching this strategy?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

As you're aware, we continue to work on our tobacco strategy at the moment. We've finished off a consultation process with many Canadians. In December of this year, we released our “What We Heard” report with respect to those consultations.

As a result of those consultations, we are taking all that information in hand. That is going to form the next part of our framework moving forward. We recognize that if we want to attain the objective of reducing tobacco use by 2035, we have to move forward. With respect to the area of Bill S-5, this is absolutely a step in the right direction. We recognize when we look at the issue of plain packaging that there's an absolute correlation and that we'll see the number of smokers reduced as a result.

That is why I'm very pleased that we're able to move forward with this legislation, and I'm looking forward to seeing it receive royal assent. From there, we'll be able to enforce the rules and regulations that will be in place. From there, we'll be continuing with other components of our strategy to make sure that we can work hard to achieve our 2035 target.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Is there any public education campaign on tobacco harm reduction and nicotine addiction?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

With respect to the issue of public education and awareness, there is an investment of $6.1 million in that area, and also with respect to vaping products because, again, it's a very new product that's on the market. We also want to make sure that people are aware of the risks associated with vaping and to provide them with the basic information they need. Investments will be made in that area, because we certainly want to make sure that we provide information to parents, to children—to everyone—with respect to the harms related to these types of products.