Evidence of meeting #91 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was smoking.
A video is available from Parliament.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
Thank you, Minister, for coming.
Having practised medicine for almost 20 years, this has been an issue near and dear to my heart, as I said in my remarks during the debates.
I want to refer to the studies mentioned by the honourable member across the way that suggest a link between plain packaging and contraband tobacco and its associated terrible crimes. Are you aware of any research that is not sponsored by tobacco companies or their paid lobbyists that is credible, that makes claims that there are increases in contraband tobacco due to plain packaging?
6 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
No, in fact, the information that we've received is very clear that plain packaging absolutely works. It's certainly an approach that many countries have used, and we see studies time and time again that show they are very effective.
There was even a Canadian study done recently that showed young Canadian women are three times more likely to smoke cigarettes from a branded package as opposed to plain package. Again, when we look at the issue of plain packaging, we certainly recognize that it's effective. It's less attractive to smokers, and especially to our young population.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
All right, thank you.
Likewise, there are claims that there is contrary data on the rates of smoking, that it does work or does not work. I spent a lot of time going through the research. We had one witness, from the Canadian Cancer Society I believe, who actually had a stack of 150 peer-reviewed studies that showed the effectiveness of plain packaging on smoking rates. Yet some say the jury is still out on this.
Again, in a similar vein, are you aware of any research sponsored by a non-tobacco company or a tobacco lobbyist that makes a credible case for plain packaging not working to decrease smoking rates?
6 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Once again, I have to reiterate my previous response to that. The information that we've received certainly shows a direct correlation between plain packaging and reduction in the rates of tobacco use.
Two weeks ago I had the privilege to meet with the Canadian Cancer Society, and they also shared with me a lot of information that was based on research and science. The evidence is really quite overwhelming that when it comes to tobacco, plain packaging is absolutely an effective way to see a downward trend of tobacco use.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
The experience in France was brought up a little earlier. How long ago did France initiate plain packaging?
6 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
It will be going on over a three-year period, and I believe the start date was in 2017. The trend showed that a significant percentage of smokers who stopped smoking did so during the beginning of that transition phase. We're still looking at that information very closely, but preliminary findings show that there's certainly a link there, and we'll continue to look at the evaluation.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
With respect to vaping, I appreciate the fact that you want to make amendments restricting the advertising of vaping. We've heard some claims that vaping is less harmful. Are you aware of any trends or research indicating that those who have never smoked but who start vaping are likely to go on to smoking tobacco?
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
I haven't seen any specific research with respect to that, but that's why it's really important for us to strike that balance with the proposed Bill S-5. We really want to make sure that we in no way promote vaping products to children under the age of 18, or promote them to anyone who's a non-smoker at this point in time. We don't want to create another generation of people who are addicted to this substance. That is why we're very restrictive with respect to our marketing and our promotional materials, to ensure they don't encourage young people to want to start this habit.
That being said, as I've indicated, we also recognize that it can be a very good harm reduction approach when it comes to smokers. We certainly want to ensure that the products are available for those who smoke right now, with the hope that they are going to be able to wean themselves off.
I have something to share with you if I have the time, Mr. Chair.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
I will continue on the next round. Thank you.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here today as a guest on the committee.
Minister, it's nice to see you. I haven't interacted with you since you left our finance committee table. I'm sure you don't miss us, but we miss you.
I'd like to follow up with my colleague MP Finley in regard to plain packaging. First of all, we have a public health care system in this country that obviously is funded by tax dollars. If you have any leakage, so to speak, in the system of excise tax for cigarettes or whatnot, that means that some other dollars are going to have to pick up for it. I'm a little concerned when you say the CRA excise stamp will clearly identify what is a legal product and what is an illegal product, because it has been brought up that those stamps have been found on illegal baggies.
Have you heard of this, Minister?
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Have you encouraged the Minister of National Revenue to conduct a review of the program in regard to how these CRA excise stamps are ending up on illegal, counterfeit products—contraband?
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
As I indicated earlier, resources have been put in place to provide the RCMP, Public Safety, and also Canada Border Services with the resources they need to ensure they can conduct the work that is needed in this area. The area of contraband is an issue.
As health minister, my priority is the health and safety of Canadians, and I truly want to ensure that we do all we can to reduce the number of smokers in this country and ensure that people do not get addicted to nicotine products.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Further to my colleague's suggestion, though, if illegal contraband products are now displaying the CRA stamp, and you're suggesting that this is going to be the sole differentiation between an illegal product and a legal one, what will end up happening is that not only will smokers inadvertently purchase the illegal products, they will not be contributing to our tax system and they will be consuming things when we don't know what is in them. By the same token, Minister, we're going to see reduced revenues. Again, the lower the cost is, usually the higher the consumption. That's basic microeconomics.
Minister, are there other steps beyond the excise stamp? I don't think this has been battle-tested. If you have a program that is currently not working as intended, to now count on plain packaging as the sole differentiator is not a very good plan.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
I want to be clear. We take the issue of contraband very seriously, and that is why we have provided resources to our three main agencies—as I listed earlier, with respect to the RCMP and Canada Border Services—to do the work that is needed. I have to reiterate that we take the issue of contraband seriously.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
I appreciate that you've talked to the Minister of National Revenue.
I'd like to switch gears now to vaping. The bill gives you the power to schedule and list certain types of products. You've said it's to protect children, and I don't disagree that we need to protect children. What I would say, first of all, is that marijuana is listed as being on there; however, it seems kind of interesting to me that you would say you have to be 18 to buy a vaping product, you can't buy marijuana-flavoured vaping products, yet you can go and buy—under the new regime that you proposed in Bill C-46 and Bill C-45—marijuana. Why have you listed marijuana as one of the flavours that cannot be sold?
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
If I understand your question correctly, with respect to the possibility of being able to vape cannabis types of products down the road, that part of the legislation will not be allowed until the first year of the passing of Bill C-45. When it comes to vaping cannabis, that would be considered a form of concentrate.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Flavour; I'm talking about the flavours that have been banned. It may not even be real cannabis inside of it, just a flavour that's been banned.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
We're not allowing cannabis flavour, because once again, we certainly want to make sure that it's not going to be attractive to youth.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
You're just allowing the real thing on another side, and yet you're saying that you can't let adults who are 18 and older access marijuana-flavoured vaping products. To me, that just makes absolutely no sense.
The last thing I would suggest, Minister, is in scheduling these kinds of things. What happens if someone starts naming their products...? Instead of cotton candy, why don't they just start saying Life Saver, or rainbow flavoured, or those kinds of things? I think this is going to be a very troublesome regime for your office because markets will move rather quickly.
Could you respond to those concerns?
