Evidence of meeting #12 for Health in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was covid-19.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:10 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Isn't it unreasonable for this step not to be handled from A to Z?
3:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Perron.
Mr. Davies, I see that Mr. Massé has rejoined us. I'd like to give him an opportunity to do his presentation, if that's okay, before your round.
3:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Mr. Massé, would you like to take a couple of minutes to do your presentation?
3:10 p.m.
Director General, Temporary Foreign Worker Program, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Yes. You have my apologies for the technical problems.
Can you hear me properly?
3:15 p.m.
Director General, Temporary Foreign Worker Program, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
As I was saying, I'm joined by my colleague Tara Cosgrove, from the integrity services branch at Service Canada.
As mentioned earlier, when it comes to food security, the government recognizes that the agriculture, food and fish processing sectors play a vital role. That is one of the reasons that the government exempted these workers from the travel ban that was enacted in response to the pandemic.
Approximately 50,000 to 60,000 foreign workers come to Canada each year to support these sectors, accounting for more than 60% of all the foreign workers entering Canada under the program.
We have also taken steps to reduce the administrative burden for these employers and we are processing their applications on a priority basis.
I think folks have already talked about some of the measures that are being put in place to ensure the health and safety of Canadians, as well as the safety of the workers, and to prevent the virus. I won't go over some of the requirements around accommodations. I think the member previously outlined some of those.
I've noted some of the questions regarding the approach that's been taken to date.
Currently, we're following the advice of public health officials. We certainly have actively sought guidance from them, and we're continuing to communicate with employers and other stakeholders to provide them with information and assistance. We’ve developed and shared guidance to employers to make clear their roles and responsibilities. The Minister of Health and the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion have sent correspondence to employers to outline expectations, and we have posted a series of FAQs online, which will be updated on a regular basis.
As outlined by my colleague Matt earlier on, these measures would be complemented by a strengthened regulatory compliance regime for employers, including monetary penalties for non-compliance. A non-compliant employer could be banned from hiring workers in the future, depending on the circumstance. We will look to enforce compliance and ensure that employers respect new requirements through timely inspections. In addition, individuals who observe suspected non-compliance will be able to report through an online portal or a confidential tip line. The department is finalizing its approach to these inspections and will communicate it in the coming days.
We're going to continue to have proactive communications and engagement with all stakeholders. It's expected that most employers will understand and comply with the requirements related to the spread of COVID. Through these discussions, it's been evident that everyone shares a common objective: to keep everyone in Canada, including foreign workers, safe and healthy. Through our collective efforts, we continue to ensure that the sector has access to labour, to ensure food security for Canadians.
This is a rapidly moving situation. We're adjusting, according to the advice of the Public Health Agency, as it goes along. If new requirements are felt to be needed to be put in place, then we would continue to adjust and work proactively with stakeholders to best address the emerging issues.
Thank you.
3:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Massé.
We will continue our first round with Mr. Davies.
Go ahead, Mr. Davies, for six minutes.
3:15 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.
Dr. Attaran, last week the federal government supposedly released its modelling to Canadians. I want to quote your words. You said that Dr. Tam produced a so-called epidemiological model last week that was extremely scientifically “incomplete” and wrong. I'd like to ask you about that. Could you explain your comments to the committee, please?
3:15 p.m.
Prof. Amir Attaran
Sure. My comments are in the context of the strategy I presented, which is that the only way to go forward from here is to carve one giant wave that will just bury us into a number of wavelets that are much smaller. That's what we're going to have to do as a country.
What Dr. Tam's model, the PHAC model, got fatally wrong was to present that this would not necessarily be the case, that there would be no deliberate carving up like this.
By the way, in the model she presented, she was very secretive, because she didn't disclose the methodology, she didn't disclose the data that went into the model and she didn't disclose the mathematical assumptions behind the model. All she presented was the results. That's not how real scientists work.
The models she presented portrayed that if we managed a high degree of social isolation, no more than 10% of the Canadian population would ever become infected with the virus, and then the epidemic would peter away on its own by the fall. This is absolutely, positively wrong, and it's wrong for the reasons that I explained in my opening: Nearly all of us, probably 99% or something like that, have not met the virus and have not developed immunity to it, so if you open up, a very large percentage of us are going to get the virus, not just the 10% of PHAC's estimation.
There is a mathematical model that I wish to share with you—and by the way, the final version of it has gone on the website while we've been talking. That mathematical model comes from scientists at the University of California, Berkeley; the University of California, San Francisco; Imperial College London; the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, and me at the University of Ottawa. What that model says is that, when you release social distancing, when you release the isolation, you will get another big climb that you must manage so it doesn't explode. That's what I mean by having a little curvelet, and you'll have subsequent curvelets after that.
This is something that has to play out until not just 10% of Canada's population has been exposed. It doesn't peter away automatically like that, as PHAC seems to suggest. It's going to be somewhere around half the population that has to be exposed, perhaps more.
3:20 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Okay, Dr. Attaran, I'd like to jump in there.
You've made some pretty strong comments. To use your words, speaking about Minister Hajdu and Dr. Tam, you said, “Worse, they are concealing data and interfering with outside scientists solving the problem”, and you also stated that “the Public Health Agency of Canada censors the data before it's disclosed to scientists”.
I want to ask you a question about the office of the chief science adviser of Canada, which was established by the Trudeau government in 2017. It says on their website, “The Office of the Chief Science Advisor of Canada is committed to ensuring that government science is fully available to the public.” In your view, is the government meeting that commitment, and have we heard anything from the chief science adviser of Canada to date on COVID-19?
3:20 p.m.
Prof. Amir Attaran
Oh, goodness, no. The chief science adviser of Canada is Dr. Mona Nemer. She has been almost completely missing in action. I think probably most members of the committee don't even know that Canada has a chief science adviser, but it does.
If you look at her website, the last statement she made publicly, the last official statement, was in August of last year. She hasn't said much of anything on COVID, and to me it shows a great deal of what's wrong with the treatment of science in government that there's a chief science adviser we haven't heard of and who hasn't been active on this matter.
Now, it goes beyond that, Mr. Davies. The problem at the Public Health Agency of Canada is that Dr. Tam is not really independent. I reviewed the documents that the government disclosed to this committee. I believe you got them about a week ago. Is that right?
I've reviewed them, and what I see is that on February 3 and February 10 of this year, there were teleconferences between all the federal, provincial and territorial health ministers, but Dr. Tam's comments were scripted for her. She was not able to speak as an independent public health officer, and that is just wrong.
One of the things that were scripted for her was to say that the level of risk within Canada is low. That was in the February 3 set of talking points.
3:20 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Dr. Attaran, I'm just going to squeeze in one last quick question here before my time is up.
On March 27, in Maclean's, you said this:
[S]ome provinces are sabotaging social distancing for their pet industries. Ontario has declared all manufacturing and construction is essential, as if all goods are in equal demand and quarantined Ontarians cannot live without home renovations. Alberta considers the oil sands essential...and tens of thousands of employees from across Canada are stuffed into work camps that are superb incubators for acquiring and then dispersing infection and death to every corner of this country.
You also said, “We can lock down half-heartedly and wait months for that, or we can do it ferociously and punch through in a couple weeks”.
I've heard you talk about the need for us to have national data collection and sharing. Is it your view that the federal government should invoke its powers under the Emergencies Act so that we can have national data collection and national standards on quarantine and social distancing?
3:25 p.m.
Prof. Amir Attaran
Well, yes.
First, here is the good news: We probably have, as a country, crested on the number of infections. That is something our model presents, the one that I sought to place before the committee today. But that doesn't mean we're over it.
As I said, this is a very long process, because we all have to come out of isolation now. For us to do that safely, absolutely you should use emergency powers. Whether it's under the Emergencies Act or whether it's a private member's bill under the emergency and quarantine power—I don't care how you do it—it forces more epidemiological information to be shared and made public.
Each step in reopening must be carefully planned. The metaphor is that you are behind a barricade from a very deadly threat outside. Do you just fling open the door and stroll right out? No. You plan how you're going to do it. To plan it well, you want scientific guidance on when and how: how many people in what parts of the country can reinsert themselves into day-to-day life.
If you follow a staged re-entry plan, you will find that the economy is going faster and deaths are fewer. However, scientists are unable to make this without transparent data. If you have to use the Emergencies Act for that, or separate emergency legislation, do it by yesterday. It is beyond urgent, or we just cannot help you get the best plan to safety out there and worked on.
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Davies. That brings our first round to a close.
We start our second round now with Mr. Albas.
Mr. Albas, you have five minutes, please. Go ahead.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for their expertise, their presence here and the work they do for Canadians.
I would first like to start by questioning ESDC. Are you continuing to process labour market impact assessments at this time?
3:25 p.m.
Director General, Temporary Foreign Worker Program, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Thank you for the question.
The quick answer is yes, with the lifting of the travel ban. All temporary foreign workers were exempted from that travel ban, so we are accepting applications for all sectors at this moment.
That being said, we are prioritizing those in the agriculture and agri-food sector, and we're examining the impact, of course, of the current labour market situation on how new applications are going to be assessed.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Besides seasonal agricultural workers or temporary foreign workers for the ag stream, in what other kinds of industries are you continuing to process LMIAs?
3:25 p.m.
Director General, Temporary Foreign Worker Program, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
I don't have recent figures, unfortunately, in terms of the intake we've had since—
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Can I ask you to please submit that to the committee?
3:25 p.m.
Director General, Temporary Foreign Worker Program, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Absolutely, we can.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Thank you.
My next question is on the announcement of $1,500 per worker for the purposes of quarantine. I want to say that I agree with the member from the Bloc Québécois that this is a federal responsibility. In my area in West Kelowna we've seen an outbreak at a well-respected local nursery. I believe that if we had tighter border controls to watch out for this and if we had these kinds of rules quite a while ago, we probably would have been able to avoid the damage to that business and to the local economy.
I would simply just ask the question. Originally, when the Prime Minister discussed this and the minister had first put this out, it was going to be for quarantining specifically when people first came into the country. Now it sounds like it's going to be a $1,500 subsidy and there may not be transparency as to whether or not the full amount of time has gone or whether it happens immediately at the border. Could you please explain?
3:30 p.m.
Director General, Policy, Planning and Integration Directorate, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
There are a couple of things.
Right now, we're still in the process of finalizing the details of the program, but the intention is that there will be $1,500 per worker.
However, one of the requirements to receive the funding is that employers are not found to have been in contravention of the quarantine requirements. In other words, if an employer is found at some point to not have followed the quarantine requirements currently in place, they will not have access to the funding. That will happen—
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Wait a second here.
Again, in regard to the $1,500, it's for a very specific purpose: to quarantine. Are you saying that we're expecting employers to just simply...? From my understanding, the whole measure was to ensure public safety. Who will be monitoring that this actually happens and that the full 14 days are followed?
3:30 p.m.
Director General, Policy, Planning and Integration Directorate, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I might leave it to one of my colleagues to talk a little more about the enforcement portion of that.
I would just reiterate that the $1,500 that is available per worker is to help with additional costs. That would include salary as well as quarantine provisions for that two-week period.