Health Committee on April 15th, 2020

[Dr. Joanne Liu]

Thank you very much for the question. It's a very good question.

I don't think that we have that granularity yet in terms of information on racial backgrounds. The only thing we have is on elders being more hit than the rest of the population.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

You spoke of the importance, in your view, of ensuring that our health care system doesn't become, to use your word, a "vector" of transmission. If I understood your evidence correctly, you were suggesting that we have separate COVID-19 health areas in our health facilities. If I have that correctly, can you give us an idea of how well we're meeting that advice? Is that what's happening in our health care facilities across our country?

[Dr. Joanne Liu]

I think that right now very few people have decided to go for a stand-alone COVID-dedicated facility. What people are trying to do now is have a better, I would say, hospital in a hospital, a sector of a hospital totally dedicated to COVID-19, and trying to have a closed circuit in that respect.

It's feasible, but it's very challenging. It's hard to make people understand that they can't go from one side to the other side. I think you could do that if people would be willing to have COVID-dedicated staff, meaning that there would be nurses, doctors and aid to the beneficiaries only for COVID-19, and we commit to testing them regularly. I think it's feasible, as long as we don't have a scenario like that of New York.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm just trying to get a sense. I understand your advice, but are we meeting that advice? Is that happening right now? Can you give us any indication of that?

[Dr. Joanne Liu]

No. I don't think so, not for all the hospitals I'm seeing. People don't know what it is to have a closed circuit. People haven't worked in an Ebola or cholera camp before, and they have no clue about what it really means. They think it's pas grave. It's not. You cannot do that. You cannot swap from one side to the other side. You need to completely undress. You should go wash and then move to the other side. There's this sort of laxity.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

You mentioned seniors homes. We know that close to half of all COVID-19-related deaths in Canada are in seniors homes. In response, the federal government has recently published a series of non-binding guidelines to reduce the spread of infections in long-term care facilities.

This is a two-part question. In your view, should the implementation of these guidelines be mandatory, and are there any additional measures necessary to address the systemic problem that long-term care homes make viruses easily transmissible?

[Dr. Joanne Liu]

I'm very limited, because I don't know the guidelines. I've been working on the expert panel, but we haven't put in our recommendation. I don't know the specific guidelines you're talking about. I don't know what's in it and what it implies. I'm sorry to be limited in that respect.

In the long term, I think it is important that we.... Everybody is mentioning it, but it's true. If want to have our elders cared for properly, then we need to have the adequate number of staff, but this is not what seems to be happening right now. That's all I can say on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Davies.

That concludes our first round of questions. We start now with our second round of questions with Ms. Block.

Ms. Block, please go ahead. You have five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all our witnesses for joining us today.

Thank you for the opportunity to join your committee. I really appreciate it.

Earlier today, the CBC ran a story about two million N95 masks and approximately 400,000 gloves that were thrown into a landfill last year when the national emergency strategic stockpile warehouse in Regina, Saskatchewan, was closed. The story goes on to state that the gloves and masks had been purchased in 2009, that they had expired in 2014 and were thrown away in 2019.

Before I ask my questions, I do understand that PSPC had nothing to do with that decision. The NESS is managed by the Public Health Agency of Canada. However, I do have some questions for PSPC.

Can you tell us how much PPE your department has purchased on behalf of PHAC or the NESS in the past 10 years?

[Bill Matthews]

In terms of the last 10 years, I cannot answer that, but I'm sure we can easily undertake to get back to the committee on that.

Before I say that, I should ask my colleagues if they happen to know. I suspect their answer is the same as mine.

Hearing silence, we'll get back to you.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay. Thank you for that. I look forward to receiving that written response.

Can you tell us then if PHAC or NESS has an inventory management plan of any kind? Are you aware of a management plan? As PSPC, would you be part of that plan because you are procuring these supplies?

[Bill Matthews]

There's clearly a link with what comes in. From a procurement perspective, it gets delivered to the Public Health Agency, as the member indicated. They would then have an intake process in terms of inspecting, counting and warehousing, all of those things, and then a process to allocate it out. I did mention in my opening remarks that obviously distribution is very critical in this environment. PHAC with our assistance has recently put in a contract with Amazon, supported by Canada Post and Purolator, to help with the warehousing and logistics. They have a sense of their inventory and where it is. Then they are leaning on experts in logistics to help them get it out to where it needs to go.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

This may be the same question, just asked in a different way. I'm not sure.

Does PSPC have any regular or recurring requests for procurement by PHAC right now?

[Bill Matthews]

We have an ongoing dialogue with PHAC on orders. We received several larger orders from the Public Health Agency of Canada, which we are calling collaborative buys with provinces and territories. I think the most recent—and Arianne can correct me here—came on April 9. It's a big bulk order that they are looking to fill over a number of months. It has something like 80 million N95 respirators. They're not expecting to get that filled overnight, but it does speak to the long-term planning behind their ordering. There is an ongoing series of orders coming in, yes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I recognize that they would have orders right now. Just prior to COVID-19 striking our country and the world, did PHAC have ongoing or regular recurring orders with PSPC?

[Bill Matthews]

We would place orders for the government writ large, so we have a number of departments, including PHAC, that we would have a regular dialogue with in terms of orders. I will turn to Arianne for a second to see if her memory is better than mine on pre-COVID orders, but I'd encourage you to think beyond PHAC. We have the Correctional Service, Canada Border Services, a range of federal clients that would be ordering these types of goods. They would not be in the quantity we're seeing now, but certainly we would have a range there.

Arianne, is there anything you want to add regarding pre-COVID orders from PHAC?

[Arianne Reza, Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

No, I don't think there's anything further. My knowledge of this starts on this in late January and goes on to March.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

I'll turn my questions in another direction, but they're still for PSPC.

With so many companies retooling and repurposing to make PPE, have there been any discussions within the department about how federal government procurement can encourage long-term domestic manufacturing of PPE here at home?

[Bill Matthews]

Certainly there has, and as mentioned earlier, this involves a great deal of leadership from our colleagues at ISED, the Department of Industry, in assessing a company's ability to scale up quickly, because speed is important here, and then what their ability to participate as a long-term player is in the various fields?

You have a couple of scenarios here. One is a company that is retooling deliberately, temporarily, as part of the cause, and another where you have a company that's looking to start up an ongoing business line.

We have relationships we are pursuing right now with a company called Medicom, which I believe I mentioned, to become an ongoing manufacturer of N95 and surgical masks on a go-forward basis, because we think the domestic supply is important.

We've seen other examples where companies have retooled to start producing hand sanitizer. Is that a permanent switch or is that just something they are doing temporarily because it was a pretty easy handover for them to.... I don't want to overstate it, but they were able to repurpose very quickly. Do they plan on staying in that business or is this temporary? That's a discussion to have with them as time goes on.

However, there's an ongoing need for the N95 or surgical masks, absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Block

We'll go now to Ms. Sidhu for five minutes.

Please, go ahead.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you to all the witnesses joining us today.

Mr. Matthews, I have come to know that one of the largest Amazon distribution centres is in my riding of Brampton South. As you mentioned in your statement, you have a contract with them. What are you doing to ensure that critical supplies of PPE get distributed in a timely manner where they are needed most, including indigenous communities?

Can you explain that?

[Bill Matthews]

Certainly, I can.

There are two basic pieces. They are very obvious, but these are important for people. There is the procurement itself, and then once the goods arrive there is the logistics solution to distribute them. The system we have in place is that the Public Health Agency is managing the distribution. They get the goods into their warehouse. Amazon is assisting them, with Canada Post and Purolator, to distribute to where it's needed.

There are a couple of scenarios. One is where we have done bulk ordering collaboratively with the provinces and territories. That stuff would move fairly quickly to the province or territory that ordered it. There's another scenario in place where a province or territory realizes it's running out of something urgently, a bit of an unforecasted demand. There is a process—and again this is drifting into our friends at the Public Health Agency of Canada's territory—where they have tables that get communications about urgent need, and they would take care of urgent deliveries in the most efficient way possible to meet that need.

The distribution is critical and that's why there was a recognition that bringing in some outside expertise—Amazon, Canada Post, Purolator—to help with that was absolutely essential. Equally important though is the collaboration that the health tables—federal, provincial, territorial—would have in ordering who needs what.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for the Canadian Mental Health Association. Some Canadians are already struggling with mental health issues, such as young people and indigenous communities. Two weeks ago I heard from the members of my own constituency's youth council.

Today we launched the new mental health portal with Minister Hajdu's announcement of Wellness Together Canada. My understanding is that Newfoundland and Labrador has had similar provincial support for years. How do you see this helping vulnerable Canadians especially youth and health care heroes, and how are you going to raise awareness to make sure that all Canadians benefit from it?

[Margaret Eaton]

We're very excited and pleased to see this national hub. As we understand it, the hub will provide tools and resources for everyone, but will have specific tools that will address particular communities, and it will also feature a crisis line. I believe we've already done some social media to promote it and we will be sharing it with our branches and divisions. We see that as one step in a process to support Canadians, and certainly in the short term it makes excellent sense.

We hope the government will consider adding on some services as well to support longer-term recovery.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

I am saying that because there are seniors who don't know how to use the technology. What kinds of services are you providing for that, especially to ethnic communities if there are language barriers? Can you explain that?