Evidence of meeting #28 for Health in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cfia.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Fabian Murphy  National President, Agriculture Union
Mary Robinson  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Kim Hatcher  Farmer, Canning Sauce Company
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Erica Pereira
Theresa Iuliano  Vice-President, Operations, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Colleen Barnes  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Frédéric Seppey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Market and Industry Services Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Steven Jurgutis  Director General, Policy, Planning and Integration Directorate, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I'm also a Conservative, so I've been fighting for farmers.

June 17th, 2020 / 4:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Mary Robinson

No one in agriculture wants to appear ungrateful for the help that has been offered to agriculture to date. Help is help, and we will take what we can get, but we certainly would appreciate more.

With regard to how we feel, well, I guess it was a Conservative government that changed the BRM suite of programs, so I probably need to say that out loud, too.

In general, as I look at the people on my screen, I implore them to take into consideration the fact that the future of our country depends on the future of our family farms. Every member of Parliament needs to really understand that. They need to understand that primary producers are price-takers. They have no opportunity to pass on things like the carbon tax or additional costs from having to protect everyone from COVID on their farms, or the loss of markets. All of these costs that farmers bear just erode a very thin bottom line.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

Absolutely. They have absolutely been pounding farmers with new regulations and taxes. I honestly feel terrible. My son took over the farm, and I sometimes think, wow, what did I put the poor guy into?

You know, the BRMs for instance, it's like they pat you on the head and say, “You know, there's money in the BRMs”. Well, they're not working. They know they're not working, and then they tell us that's where the solution is.

I was talking to a friend who's in the chicken processing industry, and he was saying that their industry is down 7.5% across the country in what it is processing. The government is asking us to ensure that there's food security, but we're the ones who are taking on all the risks, all the costs.

How do you think we're going to encourage farmers to invest in their farms when we don't have any clarity from government where we're going. How can farmers be expected to ensure there's food when we don't have the right kind of support?

4:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Mary Robinson

There's a wonderful opportunity right now for a very clear message from government to our spectacular agriculture sector. We're the envy of most of the world in regard to our natural resources, as well as our farming acumen. Now is an opportunity for government to send a message to the entire Canadian food chain that investing in Canadian food production and the food value chain is a wonderful place to invest.

We see businesses moving south of the border. They say it's too difficult to operate within Canada, so generally we need to address that side of things. We also need to have a very big look at our labour strategy. We need to get our labour issues sorted out.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I know you were mentioning the CERB and that it's a bit of a competition. Talking to another farmer friend, I was told that people can make more money staying at home than working. Conservatives have been asking, could we not find a better way to implement this so that we don't disincentivize people from coming back to the farm? Without people working on a farm, we can't produce food. Could you speak to that a little bit more as well?

4:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Mary Robinson

Government is in the job of fixing these problems, not the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. I would instead defer to your expertise on that.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

Thank you.

I think one thing that has really concerned me as well is the mental health of farmers. We have been waiting and waiting and told over and over again to go for the BRMs, that they are going to be our solution, when we all know they are not. You're told to keep on paying your carbon tax and that it's not that big of a deal. Farmers come to the end of their rope.

Are you hearing more about the challenges that farmers are facing in regard to mental health issues?

4:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Mary Robinson

Absolutely. We see so much stress placed on farmers because, as you would understand, it's very complex. It's a highly emotional business to be in. I'm sixth generation, and my family's been here for two hundred years, so the generation that loses it is the one that really loses it. I think the stresses within agriculture right now are at an all time high, and it is devastating to see how that impacts so many families.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. Jansen.

We go now to Dr. Powlowski.

Go ahead; you have five minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Well, Ms. Hatcher, I'm very happy to hear about your hot sauce.

I would point out, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Kelloway and Mr. Blois, that I see no excuse why you guys shouldn't be bringing some of us that hot sauce to Ottawa. I'm expecting it now.

I want to ask my first questions of Mr. Murphy. I assume that you're asking for the N95 masks because you feel that the meat packing plants are a high enough risk that you want to have the maximum protection. Am I right in that?

4:15 p.m.

National President, Agriculture Union

Fabian Murphy

Yes. In my opinion, when you do a hazard assessment, you determine how you're going to protect somebody from a hazard. If you can't eliminate the hazard or reduce it to the lowest possible level, you put in measures such as social distancing. When they don't work, you then have to implement personal protective equipment. The personal protective equipment has to address the hazard. Wearing a cloth mask to protect you against biological hazards such as COVID-19 just doesn't work, I'm sorry.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

You want the N95 masks and, as of yet, you don't have them. Am I right about that?

4:15 p.m.

National President, Agriculture Union

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

My next question is probably asking you a question with a different hat on, because I assume you're an inspector with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

Something that's kind of occurred to me, and I haven't heard a response and maybe I just haven't Googled the question, is that when you have places like Cargill, where 50% of the workers get COVID-19, and then you also have temporary foreign workers working in farms where there are outbreaks of COVID-19, you deal with food-related health risks. That's your job.

What is the risk to the public when you have people on the assembly line with COVID-19? I know the virus can live a fairly lengthy period of time on other surfaces, so what, if any, do you think the risk is? I'm sure there's probably some risk, but is there a substantial risk to the public when you have people working on the lines who have infections when this food's coming out to us and we're buying it in the supermarket?

4:15 p.m.

National President, Agriculture Union

Fabian Murphy

I just want to qualify that I'm not an inspector. I came from the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, where I was a health and safety adviser. Many of my members of the Agriculture Union are inspectors. I talk to them every day and I visited these plants myself.

What we've been told by the Public Health Agency is that there is no hazard to the public when it comes to the food that's being produced in there. I think that's why we haven't seen outbreaks in the community from a food-borne illness. If it were listeria or E. coli, then, yes, absolutely, that would survive on the food and could be transmitted to the public. In the case of COVID-19, there's no evidence, to my knowledge, that it can be transmitted through the food chain.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

My next question is about local foods. I certainly love my local market. I'm waiting to get a shipment of meat from a local rancher, grass-fed beef. I think a lot of people prefer the quality of food when it's grown locally. Ms. Hatcher talked about heirloom vegetables. I think they taste better.

However, places like Walmart can sell food a lot more cheaply, and for a lot of people on limited incomes, that saving is really fundamental. What can agricultural producers do to make their food more affordable to people with limited income, not just people like me who have a better income?

4:15 p.m.

National President, Agriculture Union

Fabian Murphy

That's a very good question, and obviously when you mass-produce anything, the producers can usually lower their costs.

I agree with you 100% that sometimes the quality from the smaller producers is better. I think buying locally is very important, especially after COVID-19.

How we tackle bringing those prices down, or keeping those prices down, is a very good question.

When you look at industrializing food production, like what we have done in the meat production facilities here, then you introduce the other risks that go along with that. These facilities will have up to a 1,000 people working in one plant on a shift, and if something goes wrong, such as a virus that affects people, then it's going to spread pretty rapidly.

That's going to have a negative impact on the food production in our country. We've had situations previously with the Excel beef plant, where they had a large E. coli outbreak, and that plant shut down for months. That plant was then bought by somebody else because of that.

You have to weigh the balance, I think, when it comes to producing food really cheaply and producing food that has that quality you refer to.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Good.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Dr. Powlowski.

Go ahead, Mr. Thériault.

You have two and a half minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Two and a half minutes isn't a long time.

Ms. Robinson, I'd like to talk about seasonal foreign workers.

Many farmers in my riding view the government's handling of the program this year as a fiasco.

On one hand, the government announced, in mid-March, that foreign workers were allowed to come to Canada, but on the other hand, it put the responsibility for their quarantine on farmers.

The government gave them $1,500, but it's not a lump sum payment. Farmers with small and medium-sized operations had to modify their facilities and fill in paperwork when they should have been out in the fields. They had to fill in paperwork justifying their costs simply to get the $1,500.

Earlier, my fellow member asked about what we should expect in the fall. Most farmers have sown half their fields. By the end of May, only half of the foreign workers had arrived.

Don't you think that's a fiasco? What should the government have done differently to prevent that from happening?

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Mary Robinson

As I said earlier, COVID has certainly highlighted for us the importance of the need for more strategic discussions on how we can address the shortages in agricultural labour.

With our temporary foreign worker access, international workers have certainly been coming into this country for over half a century. We have multiple generations of workers that are incredibly important and vital to so many operations in every province across the country.

I think the producers have been given $1,500 to offset some of the costs of isolation. There have been frustrations with the isolation, with the delay in bringing people in and with the breakdown in communications. Unfortunately, I think a good deal of this is just the reality of COVID and how it's impacted every government in every country and every citizen of the world.

I think it's unfortunate that farmers have to bear the brunt of this. I fear, as Ms. Hatcher said, what the implications will be when we have our second wave as we go to harvest.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

We go now to Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Murphy, a little over a month ago the Agriculture Union said that CFIA is ordering it's staff to work in facilities that are obviously not safe and without the proper personal protective gear. The agency seems to be unaware of the assurances that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland gave to the House of Commons just a few days ago.

Have CFIA inspectors faced any disciplinary measures for refusing to work in facilities they believe are unsafe due to COVID-19?

4:20 p.m.

National President, Agriculture Union

Fabian Murphy

Right now, no, there have been no disciplinary measures. We've only had two official cases of what's called the right to refuse under the Canada Labour Code, because our members fall under federal jurisdictions. Those right to refuse cases were resolved at the local level, and the workers went back to work.

To answer your question, as of today, there has been no discipline.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

That's good to hear.

You said in your testimony that someone stated there were no safety issues at Cargill. Who stated that?