Health Committee on June 23rd, 2020

[Winston Wen-Yi Chen]

I think that in Taiwan's case, the general public and the government, we have a consensus that.... Of course, we had a hard lesson. We learned a hard lesson from the SARS in 2003. We are isolated from the international health community, so we believed that we had to respond quickly, based on the scientific evidence and the expert advice.

We did not necessarily have a drill, but we had the legal framework already in place after SARS in 2003. That's the reason we could quickly establish the CECC and mobilize the private sector and government agencies to work together as a team, and then respond properly and quickly.

Also, the democracy.... I think people are certainly worried about a loss of...even a very timid one. They worry about the loss of security and safety in this pandemic. I think that's the reason the government can get the trust of the people. You have to be open and transparent, with lots of communication. That would certainly give the government more power to proceed with the mechanism that is required.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chen.

We'll go now to Mr. Van Bynen.

Mr. Van Bynen, please go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for participating today.

The idea of a greater pan-Canadian network has been a recurring topic of conversation during these committee meetings. Witnesses have repeatedly stated that such an approach would increase collaboration in the health systems across Canada, to the benefit of the whole country. I heard that Mr. Chen indicated that what was important was a clear chain of command.

Is there such a network in South Korea or in Taiwan? If so, could you elaborate on how it was implemented and whether it has benefited your country's health system? If not, why would you say such a network has not been used?

I would invite a response from both of our witnesses, please.

[Asaph Young Chun]

I can go first.

Speaking of past experiences and crises that we've had to deal with—I'm thinking of SARS and MERS—Korea was able to institutionalize a very good system of governance when it comes to crisis management. Even before this pandemic, learning from those past lessons, we had a very centralized system around who is controlling this whole crisis, who is going to actually specialize in dealing with a lot of those issues on the ground, and how the central government and the local governments need to work together.

All those systems were already in place, so the Korean government did not take any time to plan or implement all those things; I think it was less than 24 hours. That's the sort of system that I think we were able to reinstitutionalize when we had this crisis really coming up on us, and then use that to deal with the crisis in a very proactive way, because we didn't have time to have any disaccord between the central and local governments. A lot of co-ordination was already in place and institutionalized.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chen.

[Winston Wen-Yi Chen]

I think by the latter part of January our CECC was well established. The health minister was in charge of giving briefings on a daily basis, explaining to citizens the real situation about what was going on and the new regulations and mechanisms that were in place. I think that helped people a lot. They knew how to get PPE at the convenience store.

By using big data, I think the government can control and limit the number of confirmed cases and make sure people are well placed for quarantine. In suspicious cases as well, people know how to behave in terms of self-quarantining or self-isolating. I think it's a kind of teamwork. People have a sense that it's a crisis. They know how to do things for the public good.

There is a debate in society about using modern technology. Particularly in a democracy like Taiwan, people worry about losing their privacy. How to balance this is extremely important for the democratic institutions. In this area, I think our Parliament plays a very important role, checking the regulations on a daily basis, checking government mechanisms or new regulations, to make sure that people's privacy is secure.

In a civil society, we want the guarantee that we can handle the pandemic properly but that we won't lose, in the meantime, the most precious principles in a democratic society—our privacy and our civil rights.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

It's great to see that both of you are now working with Canada on some research project. Based on your countries' experiences, do you have any lessons learned or any suggestions for Canada as we move forward to reopening the economy?

We'll start with Mr. Chun again.

[Asaph Young Chun]

Again, Canadians, Koreans and other people are really eager to reopen and revitalize their economies. This is very critical to many people, especially disadvantaged people in terms of the economy and in other ways. I think you need to have the system ready before you reopen a lot of economic sectors. If you do not have a system in place for testing, tracing and then treating patients with a very good health system, then I think you'll certainly experience a resurgence of this pandemic. That is what other countries have been experiencing.

Even in Korea, I think in the past few weeks we've been very concerned. Once we relaxed some of that social distancing and went after dynamic distancing, so that people could have more economic activities, we noticed that some cases were coming back and then quarantined some people in certain communities.

We are, to some extent, pretty content that we have a good system in place. Again, I would go back to the 3T system. We also have trust between government and the public, so that we can rely on each other. If you have those in control, and if you know that your public health infrastructure is very resilient so that the crisis is kept within the threshold, then you can certainly be prepared to reopen certain areas of your economic sector. However, I would recommend that you do it step by step, gradually, and not open up everything completely at the same time.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chen?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Van Bynen, your time is up, but Mr. Chen may respond if he wishes.

Please go ahead.

[Winston Wen-Yi Chen]

Yes. To make a long story short, how to revive our economy in the post-pandemic period is extremely important.

Our country also pays much attention to how we shape our economy model and how to revive the spirit of the economic power. Make sure society can sustainably develop. That's extremely important.

In the last three or four months, for the business community in Taiwan, although domestically it's business as always, for sure international tourists from abroad have been stopped from the border line. They are not allowed to visit.

At this point, the government has made it very clear. It has selected 15 countries. In the first stage, it will allow business people from those 15 countries to visit Taiwan. It will make the isolation time as short as possible, five to seven days, to encourage the business community to continue to come to Taiwan and engage with Taiwan.

I totally agree with what Mr. Chun mentioned, that we have to do that gradually, state by state, and make sure the pandemic doesn't come back a second time. That's extremely important. How to balance all this is certainly....

Each country has its model. As I said earlier, I tried to portray the real model of Taiwan to you, but Taiwan's model is not perfect for all countries and regions. It's certainly not a one-size-fits-all solution. Each country has its culture, background and customs, but I believe international co-operation is so important and so essential, because we can learn from each other and combat this terrible pandemic.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chen.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Wen-Yi Chen and Mr. Chun.

Your countries are often referred to as models of effectiveness in controlling this pandemic, which poses specific challenges. We're close to the largest source of contagion on the planet. This was also the case in Taiwan, with mainland China.

I'll speak to you first, Mr. Chun. You touched on this topic earlier with Mr. Van Bynen. You were among the first to act systematically and to not wait for analyses from other authorities before putting measures in place. You're currently anticipating a second wave. We expect the second wave here in the fall.

There are economic pressures. However, how do you explain the possibility of a second wave? In a way, it's necessary to lift the lockdown if we want to rebuild and restart the economy. Does the rate at which the lockdown is lifted necessarily lead to people becoming careless, which creates or revives sources of infection? What are you doing to address this? We want to learn from your best practices in order to fight the next wave coming our way.

[Asaph Young Chun]

Yes. I would not say that Korea is perfect. I think we try. I think we use the collective wisdom of—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Chair, there's no interpretation.

[Asaph Young Chun]

—different key practices, so I think we can come up with the most practical solutions to the problems that you are concerned about.

What are the impacts of this confinement, of staying at home, staying where you usually do not wish to spend the whole day? It has a lot of impacts on the mental and physical health of individuals and families, and it impacts a lot of people, so we are concerned about it. This is why we are also trying to have this sort of dynamic distancing, rather than complete social distancing, be granted. With dynamic distancing, you allow a certain level of relaxation when it comes to a small gathering, working at the office, spending some time in public places, and things like that.

Again, when you do relax, you certainly should be anticipating that this epidemic might be coming back. I think that's the trade-off that you need to be concerned about. This goes back to my earlier point.

We have a system in place to deal with it. When you know, the surge in cases isn't actually going to haunt you. If you are ready, you can handle it, and you can keep a sort of balance with economic revitalization and also the dynamic distancing.

You mentioned a second wave. What is meant by a second wave? I think people have different opinions. In my personal opinion—and this is also based on the collective wisdom that we are putting together in Canada and in Korea with the scholars and then best practitioners—I think a second wave, if it is coming, is also up to what we are going to do with it. It is not just coming as a second wave. It depends on our behaviour, our community actions, our government actions. If you have all these tools in place, you do not necessarily need to have a second wave in your country. That is my opinion.

I think that in the case of Korea—we have less than 50 cases per day these days—Korean people are very concerned about even a small number of cases every day. We try to keep this under 20, across Korea. That's the sort of the intelligence here in Korea, and I'm with them. I'm an American, actually, by legal status—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Chun—

[Asaph Young Chun]

—so I know what they are thinking about. This is not the sort of....

Go ahead.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chun.

Mr. Chen, you spoke at length, and rightly so, about international co-operation.

Where do things stand with regard to the research being carried out by researchers and scientists in your country in relation to this international co-operation? Are you in contact with them?

I imagine that the issues with the WHO prevented you from taking part in the solidarity clinical trial. I want you to tell us about this. Are you part of this? Are you concerned that this might affect your ability to participate in the trials and to access future treatments or vaccines?

Where do things stand with regard to research and your scientists in relation to the international community?

[Asaph Young Chun]

Yes. I think these are very important points that you have just brought up. Actually, between Korea and Canada, we are creating this AI—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Sorry. My question was for Mr. Chen.

If you'll excuse me, I don't have much time left.

[Asaph Young Chun]

Okay. Go ahead.

[Winston Wen-Yi Chen]

Yes, thank you.

I'd like to share Taiwan's experience. Taiwan's experience is unique. Even though we are not included in the WHO, we had lots of co-operation and tried to reach out to work with like-minded countries, particularly those with democratic institutions, and made sure that we could get the necessary information in time.

Also, sir, you mentioned research in the development of vaccines, or medicines or testing kits. That also involves teamwork with the international health community. In our co-operation, particularly with Canada, we not only shared our PPE, but we also tried to facilitate the private sector, both in Canada and in Taiwan, to work together to try to establish the PPE supply chain in this country.

I think our co-operation is everywhere. We try to find every avenue to work with our friends. In this country, Canada, we have a challenge in facing this pandemic, so we have tried to find a workable solution and to tackle the issues. I always say that no one should be excluded from the WHO because the virus could be transmitted from one area to other countries. We had to work together as a team. It is so important. That's the reason we think we are on the right side of history. We did the right thing. We have good friends who are continuing to support us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

We go now to Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for being here.

Mr. Chen, when did the Taiwanese government recommend that its citizens wear masks? On what evidence did it make that recommendation?