Health Committee on July 20th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'd like to call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everybody, to meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health.

Pursuant to the order of reference of May 26, 2020, the committee is resuming its briefing on the Canadian response to the outbreak of the coronavirus.

We are meeting today for the purpose of debating the notices of motion in Mr. Jeneroux's name.

If a member wishes to intervene in debate, they should use the “raise hand” function. This will signal to the chair your interest to speak. In order to do so, you should click on “participants” at the bottom of the screen. When the list pops up, you will see, next to your name, that you can click “raise hand”.

We have completed one motion.

Mr. Jeneroux, I will give you the floor to move your next motion, please.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to be back for another meeting here at HESA. This has to be the hardest-working committee we have out there, so I appreciate everybody taking time on a Monday to join us.

We have three more motions to go, Mr. Chair. I do want to bring the next motion forward. I'll read it here for you.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee send for the following documents to be provided by the government by Monday, August 3, 2020 and that the documents be published publicly on the committee’s website by Monday, August 10, 2020:

All documents, briefing notes, memorandums and emails to/from/between Health Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and the Privy Council Office related to the issuance of Medical Device Establishment Licenses (MDELs) between March 1, 2020 and May 11, 2020; including all documents, briefing notes, memorandums and emails to/from/between Health Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and the Privy Council Office related to the recall of N95/KN95 masks.

Mr. Chair, we're trying to get to the bottom of some of the discussion in the government's response. I think that all members of the committee are interested in getting those responses.

I'm wondering if you'd be amenable, Mr. Chair.... I know that at the last meeting, we passed a motion that amended the date of August 3 to August 31, and then we also amended the date August 10 to September 7. I'd certainly be willing, if it's appropriate, to amend these so they're consistent with the last motion. I'm not sure whether you need unanimous consent or whether you need another motion for that, but I do want to make you aware that we are certainly amenable on our side.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I would ask you to make the change. We will consider it moved in that manner.

Maybe just reread the motion with dates as you now propose them. That would be helpful.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

How about I read the first paragraph, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Absolutely.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

It's only impacting the first paragraph: “Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee send for the following documents to be provided by the government by August 31, 2020 and that the documents be published on the committee’s website by September 7, 2020”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

It has been moved. Is there any discussion on this motion?

Mr. Fisher, please go ahead.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to see what Mr. Jeneroux thinks of this. I think this motion is almost identical to a motion that was passed by OGGO. The documents are already being produced for August 10. I'm wondering if Mr. Jeneroux would consider withdrawing this motion because of this overlap.

I'll read this for the benefit of Matt here and the rest of the committee. The motion by Kelly Block passed in OGGO on June 5, as follows:

That, in the context of its study of the government’s response to the COVID-19 Pandemic and pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee send for the following documents to be provided by the government by Monday, August 3, 2020 and that the documents be published publicly on the committee’s website by Monday, August 10, 2020 and that departments tasked with gathering and releasing the following documents do their assessment and vetting as would be done through the access to information process....

5. All briefing notes, memorandums for information, memorandums for decision, and documents related to the Wednesday, March 18, 2020 Interim Order by the Minister of Health entitled “Interim Order Respecting the Importation and Sale of Medical Devices for use in Relation to COVID-19”;

6. All briefing notes, memorandums for information, memorandums for decision, and documents related to the Monday, March 30, 2020 Interim Order by the Minister of Health entitled “Interim Order Respecting Drugs, Medical Devices and Foods for a Special Dietary Purpose in Relation to COVID-19”;

7. All briefing notes, memorandums for information, memorandums for decision, and documents related to the issuance of Medical Device Establishment Licenses (MDELs) between Sunday, March 1, 2020 and Monday, May 11, 2020;

8. All briefing notes, memorandums for information, memorandums for decision, and documents related to the issuance of Medical Device Licenses (MDLs) between Sunday, March 1, 2020 and Monday, May 11, 2020;

9. All briefing notes, memorandums for information, memorandums for decision, and documents related to the recall of N95/KN95 masks including documents pertaining to the Monday, May 11, 2020 MDEL Bulletin produced by the Medical Devices Compliance Program....

This passed unanimously at the OGGO committee. I'm sorry for reading it maybe a little too quickly and for the committee not having the benefit of seeing all the things that were moved, but it seems as though everything Mr. Jeneroux is seeking on behalf of this committee is in this motion, unless I'm missing something.

I'm wondering if perhaps taking the findings of OGGO, and maybe even putting them on the health committee's website by that particular date, might do the same thing that Mr. Jeneroux is seeking of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Jeneroux is not next to speak, but I will let him interject if he wishes to respond.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate Mr. Fisher's attempt to speed this up. I just want to point out that we have previously discussed the importance of our committee being separate from the OGGO committee. We don't control what the OGGO committee does, and they don't control what we do. Certainly, I think having more information from OGGO posted on our website would help, but at the end of the day, we want this to be as comprehensive a report as possible and not simply have a line saying, “Oh, by the way, go and look at the website regarding OGGO.”

I think we agree on some of the wording there, perhaps, but I still think it's the due diligence of our committee to make sure we pass our own motions in this regard. We don't know what OGGO intends to do with the rest of their information or what type of report they will do. I appreciate the spirt of it all, but I think it's still incumbent upon our committee to pass our own motions here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Jeneroux.

Mr. Kelloway, you're up next.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I put up my hand prior to Darren speaking. It was with regard to a certain aspect of the motion, just to comment on the time change that Mr. Jeneroux put forward. I think it's spot on. It was something that I was going to highlight just in relation to the notices of motions that were given on June 12, with the request that documents be produced by August 3. That was about seven and a half weeks. I think pushing it back to August 31 and September 7 respectively is appropriate.

I'll chime in on this item as well in a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

Mr. Davies, go ahead.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

My first question that I'd like to get Mr. Jeneroux's position on is this: Does he agree that the motion that Mr. Fisher read out covers the same material as is covered by his motion? If it does, then obviously the information is going to be gathered by the civil service, and perhaps we could just request that this information be sent to our committee at the same time as it's sent to OGGO, since it has already been gathered.

I'm curious to know if he thinks there's a difference in the information being sought, because that may make a difference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Davies.

Mr. Jeneroux, please go ahead.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I anticipate that we're probably going to have a discussion about emails being included. Obviously, this motion includes the emails as part of that. I certainly still believe that the emails and as much information as possible are what we intend to gather, so I would point specifically to that part of the motion.

I'm a little nervous after the last committee meeting, with the discussion about ATIP versus the parliamentary counsel being able to produce documents, and would suggest again that the committee accordingly look to the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, based on the information they provided on our previous motion. Outside of emails, that would be the other skeptical point I have.

Certainly I'm not eager to put a huge burden on the public service, but if they're doing this work already with OGGO, then it should be simple. They should be able to provide a lot of that information to us.

Again, based on those two points, I think our motion is slightly different.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Jeneroux.

Mr. Fisher, go ahead.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I understand where MP Jeneroux is coming from, but I think it would be another task for public servants to collect all these documents, other than being given the opportunity to just find out what was presented to OGGO and put on the OGGO website. It's not a hill I want to die on here, but it does seem like a less efficient way to get the exact same documents. I do think there's value in allowing OGGO to do that and then finding out what is presented to OGGO. Mr. Davies asked if there were any gaps. I don't see any gaps. In fact, the motion that Ms. Block moved was so fulsome that I think it covers this and more.

I know it's not appropriate to move a motion to withdraw Mr. Jeneroux's motion. I would never do that, but perhaps we'll see where we go with this particular motion.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Kelloway, please go ahead.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Just briefly, I mentioned at the last meeting that obviously I'm relatively new to politics, but I do think that in this case, when you look at OGGO.... I stand by what I said at the last meeting, that the words “transparency”, “consistency” and “efficiency” are not mutually exclusive. I think in this case we would achieve the same results. That would be my two cents on it at the moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

I'm sorry. I was focused on a text here. Did you move a motion to amend?

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Are you speaking to me, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I missed part of what Mr. Kelloway said, so I was wondering if he made a motion.

Okay, I'm caught up now. Thank you.

Does anyone else wish to speak to this motion?

Mr. Fisher, please go ahead.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Moving on from seeking withdrawal—and Mr. Jeneroux predicted this would happen—I would move, as we've done at all the other committees and with all of our other motions here, to remove the emails and take away that onerous level of work from our public servants, who have served us so well during COVID-19.

I move that we do the same thing we've done in the past, with emails being removed from all of our motions, as they have been from all the committees.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Of course, we can only move to amend the current motion.

Is there any discussion on Mr. Fisher's amendment?

Mr. Davies, please go ahead.