Health Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

It's for Dr. Lucas or Dr. Tam.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Dr. Tam, if you wish, go ahead.

[Dr. Theresa Tam]

First of all, let's just clarify that the virus mutates in its natural state, and we've seen the emergence of variants without any pressure from the vaccine. As for what vaccines do, if you can reduce the number of cases, together with public health measures, then fewer cases mean less ability for the virus to mutate.

Now, of course we have a number of mechanisms and studies that are foundational to the rollout of the vaccines. Measuring vaccine effectiveness is really key, and you've seen some of the data beginning to come out of B.C. and Quebec. Those mechanisms are already in existence. We'll keep monitoring the interval and vaccine effectiveness over time as the interval increases, so that is already there.

The other thing we've done is increase the infrastructure for the sequencing and screening of variants of concern. One of the key protocols is that for anyone who has been vaccinated—and it doesn't matter if it's one dose or two doses—samples need to be sequenced so that we can detect if there are any variants emerging. That capacity has increased really fast, with much higher sequencing now than we had even a couple of months ago. Over 10,000—and maybe 11,000—sequences were performed last month. We'll be watching that really carefully and we'll be able to provide that information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Dr. Tam and Dr. Powlowski.

We will now go to Mr. Thériault.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Since I have the floor for only two and a half minutes, I'm going to play all my cards.

Madam Minister, you know that I have a hard time understanding your logic of dealing with the pandemic first and then dealing with health transfers, as if we were asking to implement a health transfer program. It already exists.

What we are saying about chronic underfunding is that the various federal governments have not contributed for 30 years. This has weakened the systems. The systems weakened during the pandemic have created two classes of patients, COVID-19 patients and other patients.

The statistics I am giving you are from the ministry of health and social services report. Dr. Champagne, president of the Association des médecins hématologues et oncologues du Québec, said that we are living off our credit cards and that this will cost society dearly, both in human and financial terms. A cancer diagnosed later becomes a heavy burden to cure. To say that we need to fix the pandemic before we start investing in caring for non-COVID-19 patients is to fail to understand the lessons we must learn from the pandemic, Madam Minister.

How can you justify logic like that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think the member is not interpreting what I said correctly. In fact, transfers aren't stopping. They continue. We've added—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

They are not enough, Madam Minister.

I am talking about the demand by Quebec and the provinces as a common front. Quebec and the provinces are saying that 3% indexation is insufficient, that we need at least 6% indexation. That is what they want. System costs are at 5%. We don't want 22% as the federal share; we want 35%.

That's what I'm talking about, as you know full well.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think the member knows that the transfers have indeed been increased over the past number of years, specifically focused on mental health and on home care, which is actually a good thing. Obviously, people need to be supported to age at home now more than ever. We've been there, no questions asked, for the provinces and territories, with billions of dollars in equipment, in money, in expertise, and now, most recently, in vaccines and the support to get those vaccines to the locations of the province's choice. We'll continue to be there, as the member knows, for provinces and territories.

The Prime Minister has been very clear. He understand that investments in health will be needed as we go forward, but our focus right now is on getting through the pandemic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

We'll go now to Mr. Davies.

Go ahead, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, Dr. Quach-Thanh from NACI yesterday very bluntly said that Canada has had to effectively take rationing measures for vaccines, basically because of a lack of supply. She was very clear about that on several occasions. One example of the rationing is extending the administration of a second dose to four months.

Your government has repeatedly said it relies on science, but Canada's chief science advisor, Dr. Mona Nemer, who's presumably advising your government, said with respect to this that “it amounts right now to a basically population level experiment” and that she thinks “it's really important that we stick with the data and with the great science that give[s] us these fantastic vaccines, and not tinker with it.”

Then last week the Pfizer Canada president said this about the four months: “The fact is, we don't have any data after two months to know what the impact of one dose will be.”

As health minister, can you tell us how it is respecting science and data to have a recommendation from Health Canada to extend doses to four months in light of that advice and opinion from NACI and your chief science advisor?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm sure the member opposite is not trying to confuse Canadians, but in fact his question is full of incorrect premises. It's not Health Canada that makes these recommendations. Health Canada approves vaccines. NACI is an independent, science-based advisory body. Dr. Caroline Quach-Thanh is an expert in the field of immunology and vaccinations, as are many of the other members. This is independent advice that's provided to provinces, territories and other interested stakeholders, and that advice can be applied should the province or territory choose to use it. Dr. Tam is an active participant in those conversations, but, again, this is, as I said, independent of government decision-making.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

The only confusion we heard yesterday was the confusion about Health Canada saying you can use AstraZeneca for those over age 65 while NACI says you can't. I mean, there's a lot of confusion.

I just want to turn quickly to the opioid crisis.

In 2020 in B.C., 1,716 people died of overdoses. It was the deadliest year on record. Opioid deaths have risen every single year the Liberals have been in power since 2015. B.C.'s provincial health officer has repeatedly called for the decriminalization of substance use and for the provision of a safe supply. In February, B.C.'s Minister of Health and Addictions wrote you a letter requesting a province-wide exemption under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to save lives.

Will your government finally listen to public health experts and science and grant this exemption without delay to save lives?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Through you, Mr. Chair, in fact there was yet again a false premise in the member's opening statement. In fact, opioid deaths declined in Vancouver just prior to COVID-19 striking. That was, I think, due in part to a commitment by both the Province of B.C. and the federal government to increase access to safe supply and safe consumption sites, to restore harm reduction to the Canada drug strategy and to take a number of other measures, besides the House of Commons' approving, of course, of the Good Samaritan Drug Overdose Act, which was presented by your chair and ensures that people who call for help for someone who's overdosing won't be criminally penalized for doing so.

Listen, a lot has happened in this space, and, of course, we're working with the Province of B.C. on their request. I spoke with Minister Malcolmson just last week and with Mayor Stewart about their plans, and we're working on the framework as we speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Davies. Thank you, of course, Minister, for the plug. Thank you all.

We'll start round three now, with Mr. Maguire. Mr. Maguire, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back a bit. We had the president of Pfizer here the other day, last Monday, as the minister knows full well. The president of Pfizer said that negotiations began for vaccines for December delivery back in November. Why?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think the president of Pfizer was speaking about December deliveries when it became obvious that it was possible, but we began those negotiations—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

No, pardon me; the government was going to get these vaccines.... The vaccines were going to show up in February, and—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll turn to Iain Stewart, who has more intersection with—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I just want to know. This started in mid-November. Are you saying that the president of Pfizer was lying in his comments?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Maybe I can turn to Iain Stewart to speak about our work on procuring—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Or is it that you don't know?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Maybe I can turn to the official who can speak about our work on procurement.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Well, we heard from him—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

As the member knows, I am not the minister of procurement.

We were actively engaged in procuring vaccines very early. I'll have President Stewart speak.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

No, you weren't. You were a month late.