Health Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It's a cabinet decision. Okay, fair enough.

As I said, I'd love to see your decision tree in a page. It would be great if you would send that to us.

With respect to federal employees and mandates related to perhaps their lack of vaccine, I'm trying to understand what benchmark and metrics you might use. We've asked this question multiple times.

Let's focus specifically on those unimmunized federal employees, perhaps a federal scientist who works by himself or herself. What would be the harm in their working alone? I can't see any. Secondly, what are the benchmarks and the metrics you are going to use to allow those folks who are unimmunized to return to work?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I'll start before I maybe pass it on to Dr. Tam.

In relation to the federal vaccination mandate, we have focused on multiple factors, as I mentioned earlier: the global and domestic epidemiological situation, vaccination coverage as well as the new variant of concern that is circulating, availability of rapid tests, as well as availability of different therapeutics. All of these things guide us to really see how far we can take it in terms of our ability to have those who are unvaccinated come to work.

Again, at this point, the federal vaccine mandate is specifically a function of Treasury Board Secretariat, and we have almost 99% coverage for the public service employees—at least.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thanks, Dr. Kochhar. I appreciate that. We've heard that multiple times.

I find it a bit contemptuous that nobody is willing to specifically release what those benchmarks are. You just said that you have them.

I'm going to be so bold as to say that there are three physicians on this committee—not to be downplaying the work of my other colleagues—but oftentimes we're told that this complicated science can't be explained. I find that hard to believe. Clearly you are using some sort of science.

Would you be so kind as to table that here to the health committee—the science you're using? You have to have some. You just said that you did. Can we see it? It's a simple yes or no. Can we see it, yes or no?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

We continue to actually use—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Sir, I'm going to interrupt you because I don't have much left. It's a simple yes or no. Can we see the benchmarks and the metrics that you use? They cannot be that complicated. Just send me the ones on federal employee mandates for who can return to work without being immunized. Does that exist, and can we have it?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

My simple answer is that we take a number of factors into consideration—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Right. Tell me what they are and please give me the list of them. That's all I'm asking. You know what they are because you use them, so I would like to see them.

On behalf of Canadians who, as Dr. Tam said, are lacking trust and have gained complacency, could you please give me the list of benchmarks that you're using? You have them. I know you do. You just said that you did. Could we have them here at committee, please? It's simple.

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

We would take that as a remittance, Mr. Chair.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm not sure what that means. Is that a yes or a no?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

We will attempt to put that together in a written format for your consideration.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You will table that in writing to this committee.

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Yes.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much. Wow, that was just lovely. I really appreciate that.

I have no time left, so thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You got what you were looking for, Dr. Ellis. Thank you for that.

Mr. van Koeverden, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd love to hear from our witnesses, so I'll try to keep my question brief.

My question, for anyone who is prepared to answer, is with respect to arrival positivity rate. I'm just curious as to whether, when folks arrive at various ports of entry, that post-international travel positivity rate has at all mirrored or resembled or perhaps even predicted future increases in cases domestically here in Canada. Has our arrival testing supported the prediction of cases in Canada?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Mr. Chair, I'll start.

In terms of the positivity rate, it has varied over time. I have the latest statistics. For example, from April 10 to 16, the test positivity rate among fully vaccinated travellers was almost 3.27% in the air mode and 2.4% in the land mode. Again, we compared that with partially vaccinated or unvaccinated travellers, for whom the test positivity rate was 2.25% in air mode and 5.8% in land mode. We continue to look at border test positivity rates, which remain considerably higher than those prior to when omicron first emerged, and that is a way for us to continue to monitor the incoming travellers for their positivity rate so that we can make adjustments to our public health measures.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Kochhar.

If I'm understanding, what you're saying is that the incoming travellers are still testing positive for COVID-19 at a higher rate than the general population.

[Jennifer Lutfallah]

If I may answer, the president has provided you with the positivity rates. Those tend to mirror what we've been experiencing on a domestic level in terms of trends. During the omicron phase, we saw a fairly substantial increase with respect to positivity for those travellers who were arriving particularly at the land port of entry, so in terms of your question, the trend seems to be the same.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thanks. That's what I was interested in knowing, whether the test positivity rate at the border was resembling increases domestically.

The second half of my question is with respect to the disproportionately high number of children under five who have been admitted to hospital recently. It's pretty alarming. The numbers are high. I think in the last numbers I saw, those for the “children under five” age category were the third-highest, which is shocking considering their age category involves only five years, whereas one of the other age categories was “those over 65”.

Do you have any reflections on what's necessary to ensure that the youngest and most vulnerable members of our community are protected from COVID-19?

[Dr. Theresa Tam]

Mr. Chair, I'll take this question.

That is correct. We are seeing some of the highest rates of infection as well as hospitalizations in the very young. The most senior populations still have the highest risks, but not surprisingly, if the younger children get sick, since they have smaller airways they can get sicker than others, as is the case with other respiratory viruses. As well, of course, as we all know, those under five are not vaccinated at this point.

I think there is good news, at least, that one manufacturer, Moderna, has submitted an application to Health Canada, so we hope that they too will benefit from vaccination as a form of protection in the future. Others—the parents, the older children, the people around them—can help protect this age group as well by taking all of those other layers of measures that I've talked about so often, such as getting vaccinated and masking, in order to reduce transmission to that age group.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Dr. Tam and Mr. van Koeverden.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

Dr. Tam, is it fair to say that most of the new variants we're dealing with often come from developing countries, where the vaccination rate is extremely low? In that context, if that's true, are the international efforts to increase vaccination in those countries, including the Canadian effort, sufficient?

[Dr. Theresa Tam]

Thank you for your question.

I think the most important thing is the global surveillance system, as you've said. Because surveillance has improved and genomics have improved, we are able to monitor these variants.

Yes, it's quite possible for these variants to come from countries that have lower vaccination rates, but I think this virus is evolving. As we exert pressure on this virus from an immunological perspective, whether it's from the vaccine or from prior infection, the virus will continuously adapt.

It may come from a country with a higher bulk of viruses and transmission—that is true—but we have to remember that the virus can come maybe all of a sudden from a place you don't expect, including maybe from an immunocompromised host.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

As time is short, I basically want to know whether, as we speak, you feel that enough is being done to vaccinate all of these countries that cannot afford vaccines, unlike the G7 or G20 countries.

[Dr. Theresa Tam]

I think more needs to be done, and it's not just the provision of the number of vaccines. It's being able to support the vaccination of the population. There's trust and there are other issues as to why these vaccines are not being used. The supply is outpacing demand at this moment.

I know that refers back to another question previously. We need to better understand and support other countries and their populations and support the local jurisdictions in increasing vaccine uptake. It's not just a matter of supply.