Evidence of meeting #37 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lynne Tomson  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health
Stephen Lucas  Deputy Minister, Department of Health
Nadine Leblanc  Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

It's now after 6 p.m. The motion we adopted was to have the ministers come until 6 p.m.

Thank you very much. We're going to continue on with your officials. We certainly appreciate your coming here, urgently.

Yes, Ms. Goodridge.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I appreciate the fact that our motion said that the ministers would stay until 6 p.m. Our meeting started late. You have been very loose with the time. I think if the ministers were amenable.... We were given only two hours in total to hear from witnesses on this critically important bill. I would ask if the ministers would consider sticking around for a little bit of extra time.

I'm not sure if you're aware, ministers, but you guys are the only witnesses we are hearing from on this critically important bill. I think it is incumbent on you to stay so that we can continue asking the important questions Canadians have sent us here to ask.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

The meeting started about four minutes late, and the ministers have now overstayed the time allotted in the motion by five minutes, so I'm not sure that's a valid point of order.

I am, of course, in the committee's hands. The ministers committed to be here with us until 6 p.m. I'm guess I'm saying to them now that they are free to leave.

We appreciate your being here. We appreciate the patience with which you handled all of the questions. We look forward to continuing the meeting with your officials. Thank you.

The meeting will suspend for a couple of minutes so that the ministers can be on their way. We'll be back in a couple of minutes.

We're suspended.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call the meeting back to order.

I understand that we have CRA officials with us in the room as well. They're going to move up to the table.

The answer to your question, Ms. Goodridge, is no. We have a hard stop at 6:30 in order for the translation folks to get a bit of a break before we restart again at seven o'clock. There will be a hard stop at 6:30.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Can I ask that everyone get to their seats relatively quickly? This is an absolute abuse of —

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

The meeting is back in session, and you have the floor for the next five minutes, Ms. Goodridge. Go ahead.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's quite unfortunate that we don't even have our witnesses sitting at the table to be able to be here to respond to this. At least we're continuing on, I guess.

I come from Alberta. I have a little kid. I'm not sure if you guys are possibly aware of that. One of the questions that was raised to me by someone in my riding was about what would happen in a situation where, let's say, you have a little guy like I have who is 14 months old and has a full set of teeth. You decide that you're going to bring him for his very first dental check. I looked it up on the Alberta dental fee guide. The dental fee guide says that the charge is $77.18. Many dentists in Alberta charge well beyond the dental fee guide. Let's say they're probably sitting somewhere around $100 for a little guy to get his very first dental checkup, his first dental visit and orientation with the dentist.

If a parent who has low income went to apply for this benefit, would they be getting the full sum of $650 if there was nothing wrong and it was a very good, productive meeting? Would the parent receive a flat payment of $650 even though their out-of-pocket cost was only $100?

6:10 p.m.

Dr. Stephen Lucas Deputy Minister, Department of Health

Yes. Mr. Chair, the benefit is based on an application for and, if they meet the criteria, receipt of the full benefit amount of $650. As Minister Duclos had noted that is based on an assessment, in consultation with experts, and an examination of the average spending of Canadians in this age bracket in terms of dental expenditures.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Okay. Then this leads me to be quite concerned, especially in this space where we're dealing with an inflationary crisis and parents are already having a hard time having the two ends meet, that they will apply for the least amount of dental possible for their child so that they can get this $650 so they can use the extra money to be able to pay for groceries that month and pay for other things. They will not perhaps give their children the full dental care it might be found they need, but instead do just the very bare minimum so they can get access to this funding.

Do you have any protections in place to prevent that from happening?

6:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Health

Dr. Stephen Lucas

Among the criteria, the person needs to indicate the planned dental visit, either that it has happened or is planned. There will certainly be promotion and engagement with Canadians in terms of the importance of reaching the population for the dental care, and we will be working with dental providers, as well, and associations, on the importance of these early investments. Indeed, as the experiences for many of us with our children or ourselves have indicated, those initial visits and checkups can identify cavities and other challenges that this program will be able to support.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

I think that early intervention in dental is critically important. My husband and I were chatting about the fact that we should be bringing our little guy to get his teeth checked because he now has eight teeth and we want to make sure we're taking care of his oral health. My fear is that they will take them for a visit, the dentist will identify there are cavities and it will cost money well beyond the $650, but the parents will opt not to spend any further money and take the money that has been paid to them through this program to help cover the shortfalls that exist elsewhere in their budget.

6:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Health

Dr. Stephen Lucas

As noted, I think the overall focus of this benefit is that it's an interim measure to support families of low and average incomes to access dental benefits. It does consider those situations where expenditures could go beyond $650 in terms of accessing in a year the total $1,300 of benefit over the course of two years. But I think the fundamental point is that there are Canadians in need who aren't accessing services now, and this will enable them to access those dental services.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Thank you.

I just want to point out for the committee's knowledge that, contrary to what my colleague from Milton suggested, the phrase “beer and popcorn” actually comes from 2005, when there was a senior Liberal strategist and adviser Scott Reid—he was a senior strategist to Paul Martin—who suggested that parents would spend their child benefit dollars that were being proposed by the Conservatives at the time on beer and popcorn rather than on child care. It's actually a statement that came from Liberals, not Conservatives. I can understand the confusion, because Scott Reid is actually a fantastic Conservative member of Parliament, but there is also a Liberal strategist by the name of Scott Reid.

Thank you.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Goodridge.

Dr. Powlowski, you have five minutes, please.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

We've heard repeatedly, what is the hurry? I want to ask the officials about it. Presumably the hurry is the fact that we realize there are a lot of families who are struggling to get by. The dental benefit is $650 per year. The end of the year is January. The first reading of this bill was on September 20. Before this actually becomes law and you get the $650 into people's pockets, it's a spending bill so doesn't it have to first go to Treasury Board? Doesn't it have to go to the Senate? Is that not the reason we are trying to get this done as soon as possible?

6:15 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Health

Dr. Stephen Lucas

I think Minister Duclos previously spoke to the importance of this in supporting the affordability challenges low- and lower-income Canadians are facing.

In terms of the process of moving the bill forward, I'll turn to my colleague Lynne Tomson to speak to it.

6:15 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

We are hoping to get royal assent fairly quickly. Barring amendments or limited amendments—because they could have an impact on CRA systems—we are hoping to be able to launch on December 1 with the way the bill has been structured, given that it is not a full year, in order for parents to get access to the benefit and be able to go visit a dentist and bring their child for care. They could. The bill has been tabled.

They could go as of now, so we've said as of October, to at least allow a bit more of that buildup period up until June 30 to go and see that oral health practitioner.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

I'm sorry. I'm a little unclear about the timeline. When would people start being able to access this benefit of $650? Is it before the end of the year?

6:15 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

Once we have royal assent, CRA will make the changes it needs to its systems to be able to launch. As soon as it's launched, on day one, parents who fit the eligibility criteria that we've talked about can apply, either through My Account or by calling CRA.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

The second question is on attestation and what's required in order to access the benefit. I note the wording is pretty loose. All that's required is the intent to have dental treatment.

I know the opposition thinks our government is stupid, but I don't think that is true. I think there was some thinking that went into it, including the fact that poor families and poor families with kids are struggling to get by. There are a lot of costs in life. Dental care is certainly one of them, but you have to buy your kid shoes, you have to buy them food and you have to pay for their minor league hockey. These are all costs for families.

Perhaps we made it fairly vague on purpose, so that as many people as possible could apply for this benefit. Hopefully, people will use it for their children's oral health. However, it can be used, generally speaking, by people of low income with families who are struggling to get by and need the money as soon as possible.

I'm suggesting that is why the wording is rather loose and there isn't the requirement that you get your whole 650 dollars' worth.

6:15 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Health

Dr. Stephen Lucas

I think the government's intent with this portion of the bill is clear. It's to support access for low- and lower-income Canadians for dental services for their children. It is based on an application, and that application has a number of criteria as outlined in the bill, including the fact that they have either received dental services and/or plan to access the services, and they will be attesting to that as part of the application to receive the benefit.

We believe, based on analysis and work with experts and survey data on average expenditures by Canadians on dental care, that it will address the majority of the need.

6:20 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

If I could add to that, it is because we know there are a lot of challenges for parents in the income brackets that this bill is targeting to go to the dentist up front. This is a way to get money to then allow them to visit the dentist, instead of it being a reimbursement. It is about providing that.

It's not necessarily.... You have to keep the receipts. CRA may then do, as part of compliance, outreach with the various families, and you'll have to produce receipts. There are different thresholds, though, in terms of that attestation. You also have to provide the name of your employer so that they can ensure, again from a compliance perspective, whether there's access to private insurance.

There are different layers in the attestation base.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Powlowski and Ms. Tomson.

Mr. Doherty, you have five minutes.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I don't know whom I'm directing this to, but perhaps the most knowledgeable witness will be able to chime in.

How are dental fees set in Canada?

6:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Health

Dr. Stephen Lucas

Dental fees are set by provincial dental associations. They establish their fee guides for the range of different services they offer.