Evidence of meeting #38 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marie-Hélène Sauvé  Legislative Clerk
Lynne Tomson  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health
Gillian Pranke  Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Nadine Leblanc  Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

7:20 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Mr. Chair, it's always wonderful to have an NDP member give us a master class on the existence—it's recognized by certain courts—of a gap in the Constitution, a document that Quebecers never signed. What a delight, it's unbelievable. Quebecers will remember this.

While my NDP colleague was getting ready to recite the little lecture he'd memorized on constitutional law, he really should have been listening to me. What I said was that the bill before us relies on federal spending power and therefore this is as far as the federal government can go, even though we really don't like it and feel it's unacceptable. I said that was the content of the bill. If my colleague from the NDP—very respectfully, as he says—had listened to what I said, he probably would have agreed with me.

Let me clarify my argument. The two lines we're asking to strike out have no legislative purpose, they have a political and speculative purpose. We know that the purpose of this bill is to keep the Liberal–NDP deal afloat. It's an insurance policy to guarantee the Liberal majority in the House, and that flies right in the face of the mandate voters gave us last year.

I'm concerned that, from this day forward, in every bill that goes to committee and to the House, we will begin inserting lines from the NDP's political platform for next year, the year after that, the next election or the one four years after that, all to keep this government alive.

These are political and speculative lines, which is why they have no place in the bill. I believe my colleague totally misunderstood what I said.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

We'll have Mr. Doherty, and then Mr. van Koeverden, please.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I will apologize to my colleagues again. As I'm new to the committee, I still have a lot of questions with respect to the bill. I will go again on record to say that I can't believe we are moving forward so quickly with a piece of legislation that's going to commit, at minimum, $10 billion.

I appreciate our colleague Mr. Davies saying that it's not a plan, because it isn't a plan.

The question I have is more on a technical aspect to our witnesses here. I can't remember the testimony from the ministers—forgive me for that—even though it was just an hour ago. Are first nations families eligible for this benefit?

7:25 p.m.

Lynne Tomson Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Yes, they are, as long as they meet the eligibility criteria. They are covered by NIHB. However, if there are expenses for which they are not covered under that program—which would be unlikely, but if it was to happen—and if they meet all of the other criteria, they could receive this benefit.

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Okay, so then it goes back to my earlier comment regarding the fee schedule. Many first nations live in rural and remote areas where the cost for dental care is fairly high. It is an incredible barrier.

On a point of clarification, there is stacking allowed with this for first nations families. What they're getting from the NIHB, they can top up with this benefit. Is that correct?

7:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

If they have out-of-pocket expenses for which they would have a receipt, again, as long as they have the other benefits, they can. This is similar to others who would have access to provincial—

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I'm sorry to cut you off, but they don't do an attestation; they just have to have the receipt.

7:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

Well, they would still have to do an attestation. There's the income threshold, and then there's the age of the child. There are all the other things. They have to give us the name of the—

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

The dental provider.

7:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

7:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Okay, thank you.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Mr. van Koeverden, go ahead.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm compelled to speak up a little bit on the direction of this conversation, specifically on Monsieur Garon and the conversation around the federal government's ability...its spending power. I would challenge the word “ability”. Of course the federal government has that ability. They also have the requirement, the obligation, to support all Canadians, not just one province.

I'm an MP from Ontario, but I care about provinces that don't have a dental care provision and I care about the ones that do have a dental care provision, whether it's Nunavut, Northwest Territories or British Columbia. I was elected to support Canadians from every province and territory.

I'm not challenging any of your arguments, but I think that using the word “ability”.... I think of it as an obligation to send money across this country and ensure that we are reducing inequality.

Second, the number $10 billion has been thrown around a lot. Most recently, it was “at minimum” $10 billion. I don't think those numbers are correct. I think it's quite a lot less. I think it's a maximum of $10 billion over a long period of time, which includes a future that, at that stage, will give us a dental care bill. I'm going to look a little bit more into those numbers.

In addition to all of that, the main reason I am extremely supportive of this bill is that it will support Canadians in really tough financial situations right now, and it will ensure that they can go and visit the dentist when that might be a tough decision. It's expensive to visit the dentist, and they shouldn't have to choose between.... We've heard members from other parties talking about having to choose between essentials like rent and food, and dental care is an essential. This will remove that from the equation.

Finally, every party in the House right now in this minority Parliament has an opportunity to contribute, and precisely zero people I talked to during the last campaign would say that they didn't want us to work together. We have an opportunity to work together and an obligation to work together. To continually suggest that this bill is just to keep the government alive or something like that is disingenuous. Canadians don't care about our partisan crap. They want us to get on with it and create programs that support them. This is an example of that. There are other examples of that.

Mr. Doherty, I know you're up next. You have a good idea. You contributed a lot to the conversation around mental health and suicide prevention. We work on that together, and I'm thrilled that we do. This is just one of those opportunities to work together for better outcomes for Canadians.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Dr. Ellis, you have the floor.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you, Chair.

Interestingly enough, my colleague mentioned working together. It's interesting that there is a guillotine clause in this bill. Obviously, we need to be here until midnight debating this without any significant number of witnesses from many stakeholders, which appears to be unusual in how we work together. From that perspective, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

That being said, I had a question for the witnesses who are here. I think we heard specifically about the NIHB situation. If a family fits all the other criteria and they have a copay from their private plan, could they use the money to pay for that?

7:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

Yes, as long as they have that receipt for which they have out-of-pocket expenses, they could apply for this benefit.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

So that's a yes.

7:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

If they used it for dental services, that's a yes.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

That's great.

That's all I have, sir. Thank you.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

We'll have Mrs. Goodridge, please.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to clarify something. I'm really digging in here. Subparagraph 7(b)(iv) states very clearly:

who is not insured under a dental services plan and who does not have access to a dental care insurance plan obtained on the basis of the employment of the applicant, their cohabiting spouse or common law partner or any other person

I'm curious how that matches up with the answer you just gave to my colleague from Cumberland—Colchester. It states very clearly in black and white in this bill that they cannot apply for this if they have other insurance.

If the intent of the bill is to allow people to have the top-up, I believe that would probably require some major amendments, but as the bill is currently written, unless I am out to lunch—and perhaps our legislative clerks can assist us in this—I believe that the bill stipulates that that answer is incorrect.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Just before you answer, I'd like to provide some guidance here.

We are now debating an amendment to clause 2. The question that you're being asked to answer is in connection to clause 7. In fairness, we've gone a bit away from where we should be. She has asked the question and I would ask you to answer it, but I raise that as a note of caution for everyone here. We will get to clause 7.

Go ahead.

7:35 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

Mr. Chair, the first question was...as long as all of the eligibility criteria were met.

You're absolutely right. If you do have private insurance, you're not eligible for this benefit, but if you do have out-of-pocket expenses for which you have a receipt, and you have met all the criteria that are included—

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

I'm right, then.

7:35 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Health

Lynne Tomson

You are right. If you have private insurance, you cannot apply for this benefit. If you have out-of-pocket expenses for which you are not reimbursed, you could apply.