Health Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

All right. In your earpiece, are you getting French now? You're getting English. Okay.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm getting French.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Perfect.

We'll restart the clock.

Mr. Davies, go ahead.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I was saying, Sherry, I just want to thank you and congratulate you on this legislation. Again, Parliament is at its best when it's bringing forth legislation that will make a real difference in people's lives, and everybody from all sides of the aisle recognizes it. I know there are a million issues that you could have brought forward—and many that are important—but this is a really critical one that I think we all look forward to passing as soon as possible.

Being from British Columbia, I had the good fortune to go through the firefighter training school for a day. Now, I always admired firefighters, but after that experience, I was a changed person. I was certainly a changed politician. I knew it was a tough job, but I didn't know the full scope of that.

Firefighters don't just put out fires. They have to deal with electric car accidents where there's complicated chemical and electrical stuff going on; downed wires during storms; difficult rescues in extraordinarily tight spaces, I found; accident response and—where I come from in Vancouver—even first response in overdoses.

What I was amazed by was the vast degree of knowledge, experience and skill sets they have to bring. They are true heroes, and I want to put that on the record. They are unbelievably well-trained professionals who exhibit a high degree of knowledge and professionalism every day.

I've been fortunate to be on this committee for seven years—since 2015—and one thing that has really come to dominate my thinking is the importance of prevention. I don't think we spend enough time on that in health care. We wait until people get sick or hurt, and then we have a pretty good system for dealing with it. However, I think we have to put way more money, time and resources into preventing that in the first place.

Before I get to some specifics, I do want to mention that I am blessed by having the guidance and wisdom of some of the best firefighters in the country. Gord Ditchburn, Rob Weeks, Lee Lax and Dustin Bourdeaud’huy are all wonderful people in British Columbia who have played a significant role in this as members of Local 18. I want to give them a shout-out.

They told me that, in the IAFF database, 84 B.C. professional firefighters have died from occupational cancers, and those are ones who have been recognized as being covered under WorkSafeBC. Interestingly, most of those cancers—40%—are colon, brain and lung cancers, and there are many cancers, I understand, that are occupationally caused and for which firefighters are at risk.

I think that significantly—and maybe grossly—understates the extent of the real situation because there are many more, I think, who have suffered from and maybe passed due to cancer who are not caught by these statistics.

Do you have any comment, Sherry, about the state of statistics right now? Are we capturing the extent of the problem, in your view?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you so much, and thank you for your support on this.

I just want to clarify that—when you mentioned my bringing the legislation and so on—this isn't about me. This is about the people behind me right now and those like them.

You bring up a really good point. When I was doing the research for this bill, I compared each jurisdiction and which cancers they recognize to see if there are some commonalities.

Quite surprisingly, I saw there was a type of cancer that only the Province of Quebec recognizes.

This cancer is laryngeal—of the larynx—and Quebec is the only province that recognizes it. It has information that others don't.

It's by sharing that expertise, so if B.C. or Manitoba already recognize 19, but they don't recognize laryngeal...there are more out there.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Right. I want to move on to a few other issues.

One issue that I think is square in federal jurisdiction—that is preventative, too—is the issue of toxic chemicals that are connected with flame retardants in furniture. The NDP caucus wrote a letter to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change in 2021. We know that these toxic chemicals are commonly used in flame retardants, and they're in a wide variety of products, including upholstered furniture. They threaten the environment and coastal marine life, but they affect the human body and are linked to numerous health problems such as cancer, particularly when they're combusted.

One thing I'm wondering about is whether you think we need to work together to get strong, enforceable regulations to get these dangerous chemicals out of products, with firefighters being included in the classification of vulnerable populations when assessing chemical safety. If we can get those chemicals out of things like furniture, we can prevent some of these cancers as well.

Do you have any comments or thoughts on that issue?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you so much.

In August 2021, the government announced exactly that. Firefighters are exposed to toxic substances, including harmful flame retardants. As part of initiatives, the government is moving forward to have some of these chemicals banned. I think that's an opportunity for cross-party support.

Also, in terms of updating the national building code—which was supposed to be updated in 2020, but was delayed due to the pandemic—one of those asks was to make sure that we look at flame retardants in furniture, buildings and so on.

There's definitely some work to be done there, and I look forward to working with you to see if we can get some of that done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Davies.

Next up is Mr. Steinley, please, for five minutes.

Welcome to the committee, sir.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Sherry, thank you very much for bringing this bill forward.

I wasn't sure I was going to say very much, but I want to piggyback on a bit of what Mr. Davies said.

I meet with the Regina firefighters quite often. It's more than most people do, because I have one at my supper table over the holidays. My brother-in-law is a firefighter in Regina, so we have a lot of conversations around safety and some of the concerns he has. I have some good conversations, as well, with the good union guys, including Tyler Peckam.

I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about what their biggest concern is—that is what Mr. Davies brought up—which is flame-retardant materials in furniture. They tell stories about coming back from fires. They wash off and see all the black wash off in the shower, and then they still have the itching and the scratching.

Firefighters have families at home. They take that home with them and their fear is that it's rubbing off their skin and onto their families' and their kids'. It's a very big concern.

I read the August 2021 report. Could you give a bit of an update on what the process would be to get some of these chemicals out of furniture to make them less harmful for our brave firefighters, who go out into harm's way?

Is it through Health Canada, because I think that might be a part of this? This may be an opportunity for Health Canada to weigh in and make sure that this is happening more quickly, because they know the harm this is causing our firefighters.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you so much.

First of all, please thank your brother-in-law for his service. Thank the complete family because, as you know, when they serve, the whole family serves along with them.

I think you brought up a great topic of study for this committee. This is a great idea, and maybe it could be something that the health committee looks into in terms of advancing the conversation about flame retardants used in Canada. I know California has some expertise in this field, and there's definitely some room for some research and working together to try to see if we can get this dealt with.

I think you've brought up an absolutely great topic of study. Unfortunately, I only get one private member's bill, so....

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

A few of the other concerns.... I saw the map. I was an MLA in Saskatchewan, as well. We added some more cancers to the list when I was an MLA. Firefighters continue to champion this. It's the only thing Manitoba beats us in right now.

I would ask, for Manitoba, what are some of the ones that Manitoba has coverage of that the other provinces could have coverage on?

This is so we can go back home and talk to some of our colleagues in the provincial legislatures to see how we could push them along and maybe make sure Manitoba isn't at the top of the heap. It is a good thing, but we should all try to get there, so that we can support and promote awareness of some of these cancers that should be covered by the provincial legislatures.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

That's an excellent question. I'm glad I have my little, trusty Excel sheet here.

Saskatchewan has recognized pretty much most of the same cancers as other provinces.

Also, I just want to give a special shout-out, because one area where we are starting to see more cancers is among female firefighters, and we don't talk a lot about it because only about 10% of firefighters in Canada are female. We are noticing that there are about eight provinces that recognize that female cancers in firefighters are elevated—ovarian and cervical cancer—so there's definitely work to be done there.

Knowing that a female firefighter is at a higher risk for these types of cancers means that they can talk to their family practitioner, say they are a firefighter and ask to be screened for ovarian and cervical cancer because they are at a higher risk. That's what we're talking about. It's about prevention.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I just want to get one other thing on the record here too.

Mr. Davies talked for a second about one of the biggest things our men and women are doing, which drug overdoses. I was meeting with our firefighters in Regina—they're firefighters and first responders—and they're going to some of the houses two or three times a night. Tyler told me about one house he visited, the same house, and giving NOC to three different people in the same house in the same night. They're going through this.

Please, when we're talking about this, and when it gets passed, the mental health problems our first responders are going through is something.... They take the fire-retardant material home with them, but they take this home with them as well. We have to keep in mind, when we have a firefighters' cancer awareness month, that it's a mental health situation as well, so thank you very much for all you're doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Steinley.

Next we have Dr. Hanley, please, for five minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Sherry, for your work and for your advocacy.

Thank you, Mr. Lewis, as well, and all who have stood behind you literally or sat behind you.

I'll give a shout-out to all firefighters, volunteer and otherwise, in my own constituency of the Yukon and around the country.

I have a few questions for you. They are going to be a little off the cuff for you as they are for me.

When we look at the Yukon, we see that it is one of the more inclusive jurisdictions. It was not the first to have legislation; it was the eighth, but I think, through revisions in the Workers' Safety and Compensation Act in 2021, several cancers were added. So Yukon now has 19 cancers recognized as linked to firefighting.

What can we learn from what each jurisdiction has put in place to inform the national strategy?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Yes, Yukon is definitely leading the way in terms of the recognition of cancers linked to fire service. I think that basically the part of this bill that's so important is that we know there are 19 cancers linked to firefighting and more, based on research and science from other provinces that have the details, and thus have been able to institute that at the provincial level. They have the information, so in bringing partners together at the table to say this is how they based their decision on this is not only about the recognition but also how we can mitigate the risk and what the best practices are for those specific cancers that firefighters can be doing to make sure they mitigate the risk as much as possible.

That's what this is about, bringing together the stakeholders to ask what information they have, sharing it and, at the end of the day, the provinces and territories will decide what they would like to do in their own respective jurisdictions, but it's about bringing together the information. Even when I was preparing for this bill, I was pulling information from various resources, but imagine sharing it with the common cause and the common goal of saving lives.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

A segue to that—and I forgot to set my timer, so I'll be relying on the chair here—would be what would it mean to, for example, Yukon firefighters who already have pretty inclusive legislation in place to see a national framework?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

First of all, firefighting in Yukon is probably very different from downtown Toronto. It's also not the same in terms of climate change, and the types of emergencies that may be in my riding of Longueuil.

As you said, more and more firefighters are responding to different kinds of emergencies. They're more first responders than firefighters. What would be beneficial is talking about the kinds of calls they respond to, the kind of exposure those unique calls put to them, and also about the increased risks.

It really is about the sharing of information in terms of prevention. This is an ongoing study, because we're seeing more and more what's happening. We've just heard from Mr. Lewis about the possible link to Parkinson's, so it's part of a larger and continuing conversation.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

On that note, and also picking up from Mr. Steinley's observations about mental health, it's really to address some of these other occupational hazards. In this process of developing a national framework for cancers linked to firefighting, what else have you learned and what else can we do?

I'll give you an example. In 2011, and this is public information, the Tagish fire chief, Kurt Gantner, died at age 49 from a heart attack while driving 24 hours after fighting a large house fire. That brought to light the relationship between heart disease and smoke exposure, as well as carbon monoxide exposure.

The importance of fitness, prevention, and awareness to prevent some of these other occupational hazards, as well as stress and mental health, particularly for part-time and volunteer firefighters, is critical.

Could you comment on some of those aspects?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

When we were doing the compilation of the list of cancers, we read through all of the workmen's compensation for each province and territory. You will see the numbers on the map that are specific to cancers, but often, in the same workmen's compensation legislation with respect to recognizing cancers, many of them also list sudden heart attack. Many provinces already recognize that as an occupational death from firefighting, but not all.

While this bill is specific to cancer, there's a lot to be said about prevention as you mentioned, including good mental and physical health. We can do research on how many firefighters have high blood pressure, diabetes, or other illnesses that may be contributing factors from the work that they do.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I have just arrived, I will take the opportunity to greet my colleague as well as the firefighting chiefs who are here with us today.

Ms. Romanado, I'm going to be honest with you: your bill gave me a chance to learn quite a bit about the working conditions of firefighters and the risks that come with the job. I realized that my knowledge on the subject was lacking. I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to learn more. I think there is work to be done and I am committed to learning more.

Your answers to the questions that my colleague Mr. Hanley asked show how much you care about prevention. Setting aside the context of the bill, and looking at the issue more generally, it is obvious that you care tremendously about firefighters' health and the work‑related illnesses that they suffer from. This is to your credit.

I was very surprised to learn that even the equipment that firefighters wear contains toxic substances, such as perfluoroalkylated and polyfluoroalkyl substances. Firefighters are wearing these toxic products on their person.

Do you think the federal government should increase funding for research on cleaning and decontaminating firefighters' clothing and equipment after a fire, given the fact that they are exposed to cross‑contamination? I was wondering if this was an area in which Canada could become a world leader in the longer term.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Garon.

Indeed, when we were doing research for the bill, we read the same reports about firefighting equipment and the possible link with chemicals contained in that equipment. That is part of the prevention aspect and the discussion that we need to have.

When all stakeholders come together to talk about cancer and other illnesses that firefighters suffer from, the issue of prevention is a prevailing one. How can we prevent cancer? Is it linked to the equipment? Is it linked to training and procedure?

Before you arrived, I spoke of the importance of decontaminating equipment after a fire, before the firefighters get into their vehicle. My father never did that in his day. He put his equipment in the trunk of the car and brought it home. Nowadays, we know that shouldn't happen.

We have to see what the causes of the problems are, what strategies we have to adopt and what the possible avenues for prevention are. That is part of the discussion we need to have.