Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 17th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'm certainly attempting to be respectful of all the members at the table, Monsieur Godin. We are here to get answers to questions. All I was doing was reminding members that if they ask a question that goes beyond their time, there won't be time for the ministers to answer it.

I'll give you the same advice.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

At my age I can make my own decision if I want an answer or not. Okay?

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As far as Bill C-21 goes, the document says that no detailed cost information is available because the financial impacts will be minimal.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Bill C-21 or Bill C-51?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Bill C-21.

So this is a bill that does not cost anything, in other words, the costs are very minimal, is that right?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The document says this: “Given that the proposed mandatory minimum sentence of two years is similar to, or slightly higher than, the sentences currently being imposed by courts[...]”. So if the sentences are the same, what does the bill change? That is why it does not cost anything. Mr. Chair, your government put forward a bill that does not change anything, and it admits as much.

Yesterday, you were bragging about your desire to put criminals behind bars, and yet you introduce bills that do the same thing as existing legislation. So that means you are wasting Parliament's time, committee time, time we could spend studying other bills that Canadians want to see passed. There is no denying it, and you say it yourself here, in your document, that there is no cost estimate because the bill imposes the same sentences already being imposed by courts.

Is that true or not?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Can I answer, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Yes, Minister.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much.

I am surprised the honourable member would say that this bill is a waste of time because the costs are only incremental, that there are not huge costs associated with that. The bill goes beyond just the sentencing provisions. It makes it much more user friendly for the victims. I appreciate that there's not much discussion here about the impact on victims, but this is of great concern to the government.

One of the things you will see in that bill, Mr. Chairman, is that it requires the courts to take into consideration those individuals who have been fleeced, who have been robbed by these individuals. In fact, one of the things you will see that is new to the Criminal Code is an actual form that victims can fill out. Again, I appreciate that there's not some huge cost to the federal government, but we know that victims of white collar crime suffer a great deal. Much of what this bill does is it makes it a little easier to direct the court's attention to those individuals, because those individuals who have been the victims of white collar crime told me at the introduction of these bills that it was as bad as getting beaten up in an alley.

I completely disagree with the position as enunciated by the NDP that somehow this is a waste because there isn't a lot of money being expended. I couldn't disagree more. I just wanted to have that on the record.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chair, in the report he just mentioned, the government itself said it is the same thing as what the courts are or were doing.

I am not the one who said that, it was you. The same goes for Bill S-9. On page 2, it says that the “conduct captured by the distinct offence of auto theft is currently addressed by the general theft offence [...] ”. And it goes on.

Bills are supposed to change things. You are the one who said that the bill would put criminals behind bars and would not cost a thing. Come on! You can't put them in facilities that do not exist.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, I don't mind telling the honourable member--

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

They aren't going to sleep in tents.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Pardon me?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

They aren't going to sleep in tents.

The prisoners don't stay in tents. They go to jail, and there are going to be costs. The whole document is about no costs.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well--

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

And where there is no cost, some of them, Mr. Chair--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chair, I'll go around the table to you. I know you can take it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I can take it.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

But you're saying there are no costs. Where there are no costs, you're talking about the provinces, the responsibility of the provinces to take care of the youth.

When we talked to Mr. Page yesterday, he said we have to know the cost, that members of Parliament have to know the cost if we're going to vote on it. We don't only represent a riding; we represent provinces. We have a responsibility. The effect of what we do here in Ottawa is reflected in the provinces and they have the right to know, don't you think?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, Mr. Chairman, the honourable member mentioned specifically Bill S-9. That is the bill that makes it, for the first time, a separate offence in the Criminal Code to steal an automobile.

As the member's colleague, Mr. Martin, will tell you, I was encouraged to bring forward this legislation by the NDP Government of Manitoba. I appreciate that there are costs to the provincial governments. But to be fair, and to put this into context, we had been lobbied, asked, and had discussed this matter to have a separate section in the Criminal Code with respect to auto theft. I think we are acting in a responsible manner when we respond to those requests from the provinces. Again, I make no apology for making that a separate offence, Mr. Chairman, within the Criminal Code. I had widespread provincial support.

Going back to the last question from the Bloc, yes, there are costs to the provinces. This is why I have found it very helpful over the last four years to sit down with my provincial counterparts to get their input, because yes, in fact the costs of the administration of justice for the most part are borne by the provinces, but we don't do it in a vacuum.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Martin, there are 30 seconds left.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

In that period of time, Mr. Chairman, I think even you would agree that the people of Canada have the right to know what their government is doing with their money.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

That's right. You're absolutely right, Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It's a fundamental cornerstone of our democracy. They know the whole cost because it was presented to them in cabinet memoranda. We've heard testimony that that information is no longer a cabinet confidence once the bill has been tabled in Parliament.

The leading authorities on the subject say they're hiding behind cabinet confidence to deliberately not give us that information.