Evidence of meeting #50 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William V. Baker  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety
Doug Nevison  Director, Fiscal Policy Division, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Ned Franks  Professor Emeritus, Department of Political Studies, Queen's University, As an Individual

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

And I'm delighted to hear it.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'd like to get the information--

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

So would I.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

--and I'm sure the other members would like to get information from these ministers.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Totally.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

So let's get to a question, and I'll get an answer.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The ministers yesterday provided us with some information: binders that tried to respond to 72 pieces of information requested four months ago. They did not even come close to responding to those 72 pieces of information requested in my motion, and they failed to respect the Speaker's ruling.

Yesterday, Mr. Chair, the minister said he had responded to all the questions. But he left out many of the costs of these bills, including new prison costs, because he said our motion didn't require him to provide all these costs.

Mr. Chair, I'll draw to the attention of the committee the fact that my motion specifically said to provide all costs “in accordance with the Treasury Board Guide to Costing”, which requires all direct and indirect costs to all departments and requires all the costs to stakeholders, including provinces.

Mr. Chair, yesterday the ministers parsed their words. It reminded me of the Bill Clinton defence on the Lewinsky affair, when he said there was some confusion as to whether or not he had been asked specifically about sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky. His response, having been caught, was, “It depends upon what the definition of the word is is.”

It also reminded me of Mulroney's defence at the Oliphant commission, when Mulroney said he had not been asked the specific question by investigators as to whether or not he had received funds from Karlheinz Schreiber. I'll also remind the committee and the ministers that Justice Oliphant dismissed this defence as “patently absurd”.

Mr. Chair, these two ministers are acting like two crusty old lawyers trying to game the system instead of two cabinet ministers with a responsibility to tell the full truth to Parliament and to Canadians about the full cost of their prison bills. Canadians and this Parliament deserve better.

Mr. Nicholson, the finance committee set a deadline of November 24, 2010. That deadline passed without even an acknowledgement by your department, which showed contempt to this Parliament.

A week later, on December 1, you gave your first response: you couldn't provide any of the information because of cabinet confidence.

Do you still believe that to be true, or were you misleading the committee?

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Brison, again--

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Yes, through the chair.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

--through me to the witness, please.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Of course.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Nicholson, please answer the question.

10:05 a.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

We have been as forthcoming as possible, Mr. Chairman. You will see, in the information provided for you with respect to the 18 bills, a very detailed breakdown of all the details, all the expenses.... I mean, they are very difficult to project, as you can imagine, but a great deal of analysis has gone into that. This follows up earlier this year, when we indicated the various costs of the bills, when that was able to be determined.

I don't think the honourable member, or anybody, is looking for cabinet confidences.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Chair--

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

If something is a cabinet confidence, of course it continues to remain. We have an obligation on that.

But in terms of getting information with respect to these bills, I think the committee members, as they go through all the material that's been put before them, will be very, very impressed.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Chair, I'll repeat my question, because the minister ignored it and continued to show contempt to this committee and to Parliament.

Mr. Chair, the minister said--

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

His department said on December 1, and I quote---

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Excuse me, Mr. Brison.

Mr. Reid.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I defer to your judgment, Mr. Chair, but asserting that a minister is in contempt, that a member is in contempt, would seem to me effectively unparliamentary. I may be incorrect in that, but I think that is unparliamentary language.

If that is the case, then I would invite the member to withdraw and to find some parliamentary way of expressing the same thought.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I would wish that the member would use language that was more appropriate to us being here and asking ministers questions on this piece of legislation.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On December 1, Minister, your response to our motion--

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Through the chair, Mr. Brison.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Sorry; through the chair, of course.