Mr. Lukiwski.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Again, I thank you for your appearance.
This is not really a question. From the government side, we have no more questions. We've certainly gone over your list of recommendations. Some we agree with, some we don't, and some we think we could, but there needs to be some clarification.
As you've already pointed out, you're looking for some direction from this committee. I think it would be far more helpful if this committee, rather than having you sit there and hear us whining and bellyaching or whatever the commentary is, sat down and came to grips with a lot of things that you're recommending here, and get to a point where the committee could give you some guidance as to what the committee thinks would be an appropriate set of guidelines.
From our standpoint, even though we could probably continue this conversation for many hours, we're going to stop our line of questioning now. I think it's more incumbent upon, and more important for, the committee to start dealing with these issues, and then come back to you, Madam Dawson, with our list of suggested recommendations and guidelines. Then perhaps we could engage you in a good dialogue at that time.
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think that's an excellent suggestion.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I'll see how it goes. I don't think I'll take my full five minutes.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Very similar to Mr. Lukiwski's comments, Ms. Dawson, we have a common cause, which we also share with the public, and that is accountability. We all remember people being entitled to their entitlements. That culture can be created around this place and people forget that connection and accountability to those we represent. That's clear in purpose.
Have there been some or many moments in your tenure when you saw what you thought was a breach of the code and you were not able to pursue it because of the particular construction of the act or your job?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It wouldn't have been a breach. If it had been a breach, I would have pursued it.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, that last little recommendation, about separate rules for political activities, I stay away from that area. I don't think it's intended to be covered by the code or the act. I think there's a gap there, and there should be some rules.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I was curious about that one. There's not a lot written after it. It's a sensitive one, obviously, as you said.
You say in recommendation 19: “That the House of Commons consider implementing a separate code of conduct to address the political conduct of members and their staff”. What are you talking about when you mention “political conduct of members and their staff”?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There are lots of newspaper articles and notice of things that politicians sometimes do that are a little unpleasant, or unfair, or whatever. I think—
11:55 a.m.
NDP
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Not necessarily. People misrepresenting the situation of another MP, or something. It's the thrust and parry of politics, shall I say. I think sometimes they're overstepped.
The one I commented on was the cheques. Do you remember the cheques a couple of years ago?
11:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That was not covered by the act. I don't know that it should have been covered by the act—I don't think so—but it was inappropriate that those cheques were purported to be issued by the government—
Noon
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I made comment. In fact I issued a report, I guess, but I did not find a contravention, because I don't think it's covered by the act.
Noon
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, I'm not so sure that I'm the person to make those decisions in the political realm. I'm not so sure, but there at least should be politicians putting their heads together as to how far they think other politicians ought to be able to go in things that are improper, impolite, lying, whatever.
Noon
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I have one final question to that, because what you said is an important thing, yet it's difficult to find that definition in that grey zone between the thrust and parry of politics—
Noon
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
—and someone crossing a line.
What's your concern? Is there a concern about a deterioration of the conversation within our political realm? Is it is a loss of faith from the public?