Evidence of meeting #64 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:10 a.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Can you speak to that a little in terms of the obligations? You said the obligations or the expectations are different from folks in—
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
In the last three years I've found there's very much a desire among constituents throughout Southwest for people to know and interact with their member of Parliament. I'm sure Mr. Allen's riding is the same.
Often I go on the weekend and carve up the riding. I'll spend part of it in the east, which extends to the Sussex area. I'll go to the island. Often when I go to Grand Manan it's an overnight visit. Islanders keep track of who comes on and off their island. You do score points for staying overnight.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Pretty much. It's informal, but the same idea. The ferry is not free; it's more for off islanders. But again there's that expectation.
Those who run on and off the island are noticed. It's the same thing over on Campobello as well, so it is good to stay. I don't like to rush in and out of communities because that speaks to the character of the member representing them. So it really comes down to the fact that I'm not looking for more territory, particularly in this case.
Mr. Allen makes an excellent point that with the way the local districts are being drawn, this change cuts it in two for a reason that has not been adequately explained or considered from the point of view of those trying to represent it.
Again, I discovered in the last couple of years that there is that expectation, that hope, that members will be available. This change would make that a little more difficult.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
I understand. I think the presentation makes sense. We'll talk about that later when we're looking at our report, but I've read the presentation and I think there's a lot of merit to it.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
All right.
We have a minute or so. Does anybody else have a question for our witnesses?
You've done a great job explaining. You've done a great job in bringing both of you here and getting letters from the people on the ground saying that they agree with what you're trying accomplish. I think that in itself should be enough to move the day. In my opinion, it won't always work.
All right, then, I suggest we suspend. We will try to come back again after bells and votes. I think about noon we'll be back down here.
Thank you very much.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you, committee, for your prompt return to the room after the votes.
Without further interruption, I hope, we have until the top of the hour at one o'clock.
Monsieur Godin, we were going to have you on a panel. The other person is speaking in the House, so we're going to let you go first for five minutes. We'll ask you some questions, and then he'll come down and we'll do the same with him.
Committee and witnesses, please be as brief as you can, because we are still a bit limited on time.
Go ahead.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to be able to present my brief to you.
As the member for the Acadie—Bathurst riding, I would like to thank the committee for having accepted my request to speak today. I am happy to have the opportunity to share my views on the proposed changes to the Acadie—Bathurst riding, that is to say the integration of the village of Belledune, as well as the proposed change to the Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe riding.
First of all, I am very much in favour of this proposal. However, as I said during the commission's hearing this summer, I must say that it is above all up to the people of Belledune to weigh in on their future, which is what they did during the hearings.
Belledune already has close ties to the riding because of its proximity. For example, many travel regularly between Belledune and Acadie—Bathurst, be it to work, to shop, to go to school or to see their family. It includes many employees from the smelter and the electrical plant.
Furthermore, Belledune's port has long played an important commercial role in the riding, because it is a popular attraction for businesses and economic development. There is no doubt that uniting Belledune's and Acadie—Bathurst's strengths would make for a stronger and more energetic riding. If you put this proposal forward, Belledune's inhabitants will be able to count on their member to ensure a smooth transition and to look out for their interests.
On another note, I want to emphasize how important it is for the commission to respect, in its proposal, the federal court's decision in the case of Raîche v. Canada, which followed the last boundary readjustment. Briefly, because of this decision, the communities of Allardville, Saumarez, and Bathurst were reintegrated into the Acadie—Bathurst riding, in the best interests of our official languages communities.
However, I cannot overemphasize to the committee the importance of carefully taking into account the consequences of decision-making on official language minority communities. That is why I wish to reiterate the concerns I raised during the public hearings regarding the proposal to add the city of Dieppe to the Beauséjour riding and separate it from Moncton.
I am pleased that the commission did not choose to maintain this position in its final report, following the fierce opposition of the Acadian community to the issue. I would like for the committee to take note of this opposition so that it is not tempted to reconsider this proposal.
Even though Dieppe is the francophone population's demographic centre in the region, Moncton remains an important centre of the Acadian community's cultural and community life. Moncton includes many francophone and Acadian institutions, such as Moncton University, Assomption Vie, the Dr. Georges L. Dumont Hospital, the Aberdeen Cultural Centre, the Escaouette theater, as well as a large number of Acadian associations, such as the New Brunswick Acadian Association of Professional Artists, the New Brunswick Federation of Young Francophones, etc.
It is therefore important to take into account, throughout the entire process, the direct link between the Acadian community's demographic weight and its political weight. That is why I hope that this committee will ensure that it fully respects its obligations under the Official Languages Act to enhance the development of both francophone and anglophone minorities in Canada.
Thank you.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Nycole Turmel NDP Hull—Aylmer, QC
Mr. Godin, by adding Belledune to the riding, that would make a 22% difference. I understand very well the francophone dimension of the community of interest.
Could you tell us what will be the future development opportunities in this sector that would greatly increase the population and the gap? Even though we are not supposed to consider it at this stage, it remains important for the commissioners who will have to review this matter.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
We're not there yet, and besides, that's less than 25%.
In the case of Raiche v. Canada, it was really the community of interest that counted. During the 2002 boundary readjustment, people will remember it, we created a subcommittee to deal with the readjustments at the time. Tom Lukiwski sat on it then. Look at the community of interest. If you look at where the Belledune riding is located, you will see that Acadie—Bathurst is between Miramichi and Belledune.
If you consult the archives, you will see that the member for Miramichi said, in the newspapers, that it didn't make any sense to put Belledune and Miramichi together. There was no community of interest. People in Belledune went to school and shopped in Bathurst. People who work in the smelter came from Acadie—Bathurst. Even Belledune's mayor spoke up on the matter and said that the right choice, for Belledune, was Acadie—Bathurst.
I'm just giving you my opinion. Yes, the number counts, but people count much more. The human aspect counts much more. In politics and in democracy, the heart must be taken into account, the way that people feel about it and the way they want to be represented.
That's why, when I presented my brief to the commission, I said that I was ready to welcome them. That's also what I recommend, but it's up to them to decide, because they are the ones being represented. They don't feel represented, and it's not because of the member from Miramichi. It's simply because it's not at all practical. People all deal with Bathurst. The number is nothing but a number. Humans are humans, and we are here to represent them.
That's my opinion.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Nycole Turmel NDP Hull—Aylmer, QC
Very well.
If I understand correctly, you support Mr. Goguen's brief, even though he's not present.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I familiarized myself with Mr. Goguen's brief, and I spoke with him. I know how it works and I suppose you are going to ask me if I spoke with Mr. Goguen.
I did speak with Mr. Goguen. I am aware of his brief. In fact, he was told that high schools built outside of the riding will be located inside Beauséjour's riding. He found that that didn't make any sense and that it should go back to Moncton's riding, which is still below 25%.
It's ridiculous for Moncton's English school to remain inside the Beauséjour riding. I think that's the content of Mr. Goguen's brief. I can truly respect and support this request.
You are also going to ask me if I spoke with the member next door, for the Beauséjour riding. That's not far from our region. Yes, I spoke with him, and he supports it as well.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I only have one question to ask Mr. Godin.
Mr. Chair, I support the presentation that Mr. Godin has just made. I know that, in a previous session, Mr. Godin and our colleagues raised questions about this subject. In New Brunswick, we are used to gaps of 20, 21 and 22%. I know that Mr. Reid and others talked about it. In some provinces, the commissions really tried to keep it within a 10% limit. That's not official, but that's still an objective of some commissions.
Do you agree, as I do, with Robert Goguen? He will of course be joining us after finishing his presentation to the House. Mr. Goguen's proposed changes would lead to an increase in Moncton's population, which is very urban compared to your riding or to mine. The fact that the numbers are getting close to 25%, is that a problem for you? It's still under the legal threshold, but that could increase somewhat if, ultimately, Robert Goguen's proposed changes are accepted by the commission.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
No, I don't see a problem. In fact, some other ridings in Canada are above 100,000. They haven't even gotten there. There is still hope. We have to look at the human side. In my opinion, an English school in Beauséjour riding doesn't make sense. That has to be taken into account.
I can't fight for Acadians to have an advantage and then refuse to give that same advantage to anglophones. I don't work that way. I find that Mr. Goguen's arguments make a lot of sense. We are ready to support them. We can't say that one side is good and that the other side isn't good. It has to be equal for everyone.
Still from the point of view of language, at a given moment, someone chose 25%. It could have been 30%. In the Miramichi riding, last time, it was more than 30%, because it was known that there was no community of interest. The federal court recognized that taking 99.99% of that city and putting it with Miramichi didn't make any sense. I believe that that established a precedent.
In the 2004 election, about 850 people spoiled their ballot. People were angry. There was no community of interest. It's good that the court recognized it. We have to base ourselves on the court's decision too.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
That's it. What a great job of convincing us. I see no one else on my speaking list. When members come here and agree with each other, it's always pretty easy just to agree.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Well, normally, Yvon, I try not to listen when you speak, so it's tough for me to say whether or not I agree.
12:15 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!