Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 23rd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Reid, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mourani, I believe you said that 5,000 residential units are being built in your riding. Are those units situated within the current or projected boundaries?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

They are located within the current boundaries. I will give you a few examples.

Approximately 900 units are planned for Henri-Bourassa Boulevard West. So that is in the present riding, as we know it. We are talking about 500 units for Meilleur and Sauvé streets and 69 units for Saint-Laurent Boulevard and Fleury Street. There will be 600 units on De l'Acadie Boulevard, in Bordeaux, which is part of the present electoral district of Ahuntsic. We are also talking about 418 units for Crémazie Boulevard and Legendre Street. We also have the Louvain site, which is being developed and is an immense site that used to belong to the city.

We also have one of the largest sectors, on Chabanel Street, which has 13 million square feet. There will be increasing residential development there because, as you know, all previous development was related to the textile industry, which is unfortunately in sharp decline. There are increasing attempts to transform all those large buildings into residences. For example, more than 250 residents will be arriving very soon at 125 Chabanel Street West. The Community Economic Development and Employability Corporation, or CEDEC, estimates that approximately 2,000 new households will settle there over the next five years. However, I think there will be many more than that.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

So population growth is being projected. Based on the projected boundaries, there will be 110,000 residents in your riding.

Mr. Dion, the population of your riding, based on the projected boundaries, would be 94,000 residents. I believe that population will increase as well.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

In fact, the current population is larger because those are figures from 2011. There are already nearly 95,000 residents and there will probably be 101,000 at the time of the 2015 election.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

How many will there be?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

There will be approximately 101,000 residents, according to the projections, at the time of the 2015 election. You must understand that these are not projects like what we have just heard about. These are things that are being built. The cranes are there, the houses are built and people are constantly moving into them.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

What are the rules that the commission members must follow? Is it acceptable to consider the current population compared to the population projected for 2015 in that electoral district?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Yes.

Based on the populations, we are currently within the limits. We are at -7% of the provincial quota. That is nothing exceptional. The commission is not trying to justify its decision. I do not expect it to remain the least populated electoral district on the Island of Montreal for a very long time. At the time of the election, we will already be above the provincial quota. That does not mean that no construction is going on elsewhere, but there is nothing as extensive as what has been built in Saint-Laurent over the past 10 years and what is coming in the next few years.

So we are talking about more than 7,000 units that are under construction as we speak. There are projects elsewhere, of course, and, in many cases, they are being challenged. Many of the projects on the list we just heard are being challenged, including by the federal member. There are no challenges in my riding. Things are moving forward and families are arriving every month.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Madame Turmel, go ahead for five minutes.

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mourani, I would like to have a little more information on what happened between the first presentation and the second. You say that you made a presentation the first time and that you are still not satisfied after receiving the second report. Mr. Dion, on the other hand, says he is very satisfied.

This riding is having a major impact around it. During this time, have you had any discussions or consultations with other members who will be affected? The entire Island of Montreal will be affected if we return to the status quo. What consultations have you conducted with other members in the Montreal region?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Ms. Turmel, I am going to be very frank with you.

The ridings around my electoral district are those of my colleague Mr. Dion, that is Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, the electoral district of Bourassa, Mr. Pacetti's riding of Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel and, behind it, the riding of Papineau. As you will see, at the time of the commission's first consultation, I saw very clearly that we did not view the redistribution in the same way. Quite frankly, I did not really consult my colleagues. I knew very well that Mr. Dion and everyone else were satisfied.

Furthermore, this model was not submitted at the time of the first consultation. According to the redistribution that was provided to us, Ahuntsic was divided into four parts and distributed to the ridings of Saint-Laurent, Bourassa, Saint-Michel and a small portion to the riding of Papineau. So it was a very exploded model. In the presentation, we requested the status quo for Montreal as a whole and suggested that no new members be added. I saw at the hearings that everyone and all the parties agreed not to add new members in Montreal. In addition, I very clearly explained the nature of the historic Ahuntsic ward. This is consistent with the principles of the act, that is to say those respecting status, the community of interest, the historical pattern of those ridings and so on.

Lastly, I wind up with this document, in which I see that Ahuntsic has been divided differently again. The historic core of Ahuntsic has been taken and transferred to the riding of Bourassa, and Cartierville has been added to us, thus increasing our population. It is true that the variance in Saint-Laurent is -7%, but it is +9% in Ahuntsic, with all the developments that have just been added.

What do you want me to tell you? Yes, it is true?

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

However, according to your presentation if I am correct in my understanding, if we return to the status quo for Montreal—the commission was established because the government at the time did not want the status quo—would that have an impact on the rest of the province?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I may be mistaken, but I understood at the commission's hearings that no one wanted to add other electoral districts to Montreal and that people wanted the status quo. I was even contacted by an assistant from your party, who told me that your party shared the view that no members should be added to Montreal because there were enough and that it wanted the situation to stay that way. I may have missed something, but I understood that no one wanted to add more members to Montreal and that people wanted to maintain the status quo. Now I see that there are no additions to Montreal. Why overturn all that?

When I look at all that, I am quite willing to believe my colleague when he says that, in his opinion, there has been no outcry in Ahuntsic. That perhaps is what he hears in Cartierville and Saint-Laurent. It should not be forgotten, however, that the federal electoral district of Ahuntsic includes part of Bordeaux and that this has not caused a reaction by the population there. Bordeaux is used to being attached to Ahuntsic and Saint-Laurent. It is another community of life.

However, it has caused enormous reaction among the citizens and local elected representatives of Ahuntsic ward.

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

If my understanding is correct, there have been no discussions or consultations with other members, and yet Mr. Dion said precisely the contrary of what you are saying about the redistribution.

Mr. Dion, I assume you also consulted your Liberal Party colleagues.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Absolutely, but I also consulted my colleagues from your party. Everyone agrees. People made suggestions to the committee. That is what I did as well. I anticipated the reaction of my colleague Ms. Mourani. That is why I am testifying in committee.

I would prefer the status quo. I will be happy if she wins and I am given Cartierville. I love Cartierville, but a margin of +16% means that will not happen. Ms. Mourani is proposing something unrealistic. Cartierville cannot be left in Saint-Laurent. That will not be accepted.

In this case, I do not want Cartierville to be fragmented. It must be put together with Ahuntsic. If I am asked the question later on, I will say that Cartierville must be given to an electoral district that will be completely functional and that will function very well. A division in Papineau makes sense. I would not give Cartierville to a riding if I considered that abnormal. This is a riding that will function well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. LeBlanc, you have five minutes and then we'll finish up.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank Mr. Dion and Ms. Mourani. We have quite an obvious contradiction before us. There are two quite different viewpoints.

My question is for Mr. Dion.

Earlier you said that we could ask you a question on the future of Cartierville and on integration with the new electoral district. I am therefore asking that question right now in order to give you the opportunity to answer it. However, before concluding this discussion, do you have any reaction to Ms. Mourani's comments? Is there anything you would like to add to what she proposes in the few minutes we have left?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

I believe my colleague and neighbour mentioned three aspects, including matters pertaining to residential construction. I answered that nothing compared to Saint-Laurent.

She also talked about the public reaction. I maintain that there was no outcry anywhere. We are talking about transferring 9,400 residents, but worse things could happen. There is also the history, to which I will return.

I admit to you that I am very sad to lose Cartierville. The commission is transferring that territory to an electoral district that makes sense. It is better there than in the current riding for various reasons.

First, the borough of Ahuntsic-Cartierville is currently divided into three electoral districts: Bourassa, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville and Ahuntsic. It will now be divided into only two. And one municipal councillor said that dividing it in two was better than dividing it into three. The mayor has said nothing on the matter. He has not reacted strongly.

Second, the division in the east between the new electoral district of Ahuntsic—Cartierville and that of Bourassa is much better for people than what we currently have because it is along the enormous Papineau Avenue, which has five traffic lanes, two parking lanes and a median. It is complicated. Bruchési Avenue, which is the current boundary, is a one-way street indistinguishable from the others.

Third, there is a good population balance among the three former cities. Consequently, that will work well between Bordeaux, Cartierville and Ahuntsic.

Fourth, the weight of the people from Sault-au-Récollet, who will wind up in Bourassa, will be greater. They will represent 16% of the population rather than 7% as is currently the case. The member for Bourassa will therefore have to deal with this riding.

People are really not concerned about the historical reason. I have documentation showing that Sault-au-Récollet is not Ahuntsic. In fact, Ahuntsic joined the City of Montreal in 1910 and Sault-au-Récollet in 1915 but was already divided in two between Montréal-Nord and the City of Montreal.

There were barely 1,000 residents in each of those villages at the time. That is why there has been no outcry about this. People are much more concerned about the reality of today, with the enormous Papineau Avenue crossing Montreal Island at that location, than those historical considerations. They are interesting, but they can be read differently. Some local historians show that Sault-au-Récollet is not the village of Ahuntsic. They are two different villages.

I moreover have a map that can demonstrate that. It is the official map of Montreal. It is printed in small letters and even I cannot read it. If you look more to the right, the darker portion is Sault-au-Récollet, with the part that is currently in Bourassa. The other part is currently in Ahuntsic and it would be cut off at Papineau. That means that part of Sault-au-Récollet would be in Bourassa and another part in Ahuntsic. It is already divided today and will be divided differently and in a more logical way for people.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you. That finishes this panel.

We'll suspend for a moment.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Can we just keep that up for a second, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Yes.

Put that back up for Mr. Reid, if you would, please, just for a second.

Is it okay if I suspend while you're looking at it?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Yes.