Evidence of meeting #79 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you.
You're all doing very well today in asking that long question and leaving very little time. It's been reflected in all of your time today.
Mr. Cullen, let's try to finish up. We'll go to Monsieur Dion after you.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
We've talked a lot about restoring integrity to the electoral process and the concerns that Canadians have in seeing all of these instances. I also asked you about what consultation, or total lack of consultation, the government has made in terms of addressing this fundamental issue of how to restore that integrity.
I'm also reflecting on Judge Mosley's decision, the one you've also closely watched and listened to. There was a quote from his ruling that said Conservatives showed little effort to assist Elections Canada with the investigation.
Do you recall that quote from the judgment?
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I'm not sure he was referring to Elections Canada in that quote.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
There was a possibility that it was reported incorrectly—engaged in trench warfare.
Here's my question about pattern. If the judge found—whether it was your investigation or the investigation of the court itself—that there was great reluctance and feet dragging and all the rest of those things, to get at that justice, and there was denial of that justice from the delay, we then transfer it over to the legislative change, the rules changes we need, the political will that has to come from Parliament, and a similar dragging of the feet delay.
We now have a deadline. You didn't use that term “deadline”, but you said that if you didn't have the legislation confirmed and in your hands by the spring of 2014, we will conduct the next federal election under the same rules as we did with the last one, in which all these fraudulent calls went on and some Canadian voters were disenfranchised from their opportunity to vote.
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Or we will run the risk that the rules will be poorly understood and we will not be sufficiently prepared.
When I say “we”, I mean not only Elections Canada. I think candidates and campaigns need to know the rules early on, as well as Canadians. I think it's important that there's ample and early notice.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You talked about not wanting to look backwards, but of course we look back to try to fix something going forward. There is a cloud that has now surrounded some of those elections and people currently sitting in the House. If we're not to have that cloud over the next election and the integrity questioned again, we need the changes.
Yet in due course we see these answers from the government, with no consultation with you who are the experts on fixing the holes in the system. This is what is confounding to many of us. It would be the first call I would make, if I saw you as an ally as opposed to an enemy. It would be the first call I would make to confer and consult in meaningful ways, not what we've seen so far.
I asked a passing question at the end of my last round about the Senate. I want to know what triggers an investigation on your part, similar to the House of Commons but that also applies to the Senate. Is it on a reporting of a complaint that a member of Parliament or a senator was claiming expenses while campaigning that you would begin an investigation? What can initiate an investigation on your part, and does it fall within your mandate?
12:35 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Investigations fall under the mandate of the commissioner.
It depends on the issue that may arise, but let's say it's a complaint about claims made during a campaign. Normally the first thing would be to see if there are enough facts in the complaint to validate the information. The second thing would be to look at the audit of the return we did to see if those claims or expenses have been reported and how they've been reported. If there are reasons or there is an issue there, it may be referred to the commissioner.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I just want to follow this through. It starts with a complaint: “I saw Senator so-and-so campaigning during the writ period.” You can then look at the campaign statements to see if there was any filing of the costs of having that senator there. If they're not accounted for, if the campaign didn't pay for their travel.... Are those the kinds of things we're talking about—per diems and so on? What kinds of things are you looking for? I'm just trying to understand what powers you have and what kinds of things you're looking for that you hear from complainants.
12:40 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
That varies depending on the political entity. For candidates, we're entitled to ask for all the receipts and to ask that all the charges be documented. If there is an indication that so-and-so was campaigning there, we can ask questions, and we can ask for evidence and validation of the costs that were reimbursed. That would trigger a reimbursement from the—
12:40 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It's for candidates, for parties, and EDAs. We mentioned in 2010 that we didn't have access to supporting documents for various claims.
12:40 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No. That's another tool I have been looking for.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You've asked for the tool to catch somebody who is campaigning illegally or charging essentially illegal expenses to the taxpayer for campaigning for a candidate. Right now you don't have access to the documents to verify whether they were charging back—
12:40 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I have access to documents related to individual candidates' campaigns. I don't have them for whatever has been charged to a party. I don't know what's been charged to a political party or even an EDA in that respect. Some of the campaign activities may have been charged to the EDA or the party.
12:40 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
They will report expenditures at large. I don't have a way of verifying specific expenditures. I don't have access to receipts or invoices.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you.
It's difficult to not comment on that. If those in charge of the election are asking for certain tools to make sure the elections are fought fairly, and they are not given those tools, one can only draw a couple of conclusions. That's being done out of laziness or intentionally. Incompetence is a third option, I suppose. That's too often levied in government.
I want to talk about youth participation for a moment.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
That's perfect.
Do you believe if people could vote online, as they do for the leadership of parties, for example, under a system that is currently employed, that could potentially open up the door for youth participation to a higher level in particular, as they are much more a generation that exists online?
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you.
We'll see if we can get the answer under Mr. Dion's questioning.