Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 21st, 2013

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes.

[Mark G. Watters]

First of all, let me say that I think the 21 people in Finance Services who do the work of the adjudication of the claims would have to be moved over, out of the Finance Services of the House, and then basically replicate in the new agency what they do here. That can be done with some machinery change, depending on the entity that's created and that type of thing.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes.

[Mark G. Watters]

But they would need to be supported, as I was saying a little earlier, by other infrastructure. They would need to be housed in a facility. They would need to have the support of a human resources department, or they would have to be able to buy that service from somewhere else. They would need systems. They would need their own audit regime as well. For the work they would do, they would need an appropriation to proceed. They would need a senior management.

Basically, it's the cost of putting the key in the door. You're creating a new entity. It's not a matter of just taking the people who are operationally doing the job that you want them to do; you need to surround them with the infrastructure to allow them to be able to do their job. If those people decide to organize, then you'll have to enter into collective bargaining agreements with the bargaining agent and so on. You can appreciate that there's a lot of work to do in that respect.

But it would be important also, Mr. Chair, to take the time. If there's one thing that was stressed to us when we met with the U.K., it was that six months to do this is just far too little time. As the Clerk was saying, some three years later, they're finding the middle ground and the sweet spot in terms of the relationship between the entity and parliamentarians. It takes some time to do that and to not rush things, because they need to be set up properly to do the job that we would expect them to do.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

But certainly between now and the next election, this is very doable, this actual list that you've put out. Having set up organizations, I certainly understand what you're saying about a measured approach. This could be in place and voters could see it in time for the next election, perhaps not for the immediate next fiscal year, but certainly for the fiscal year after that.

On the audit regime you're speaking of, the Auditor General, who is a strong proponent of independent oversight, has said as well that he wants to be involved in comprehensive audits. That's certainly something we support, and that's something that he would require some additional resources for. But he's been cut back by this government. I think there's a strong mood in the public for the Auditor General to be given those additional resources, because it's taxpayers' money, after all. The Auditor General, on behalf of the public, is ensuring that expenses are accurately undertaken.

I'll go to both of you, then, Madam O'Brien and Mr. Watters. Do you have a preference in terms of the Manitoba model with a commissioner, or the IPSA model? Do you have any thoughts on either of those? I'm saying that those are the two choices. You may have another choice, but I'm saying that with the presumption, of course, that the mandate Parliament has given us is that we're doing away with the secretive self-policing and the bureau of internal economy. Given that we're doing away with that, what is your preference in terms of model?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

A quick answer, please.

[Audrey O'Brien]

I guess that if one were to look at either Manitoba's or an IPSA model, I suppose that an IPSA model would seem somewhat preferable to me.

If you have a lone commissioner, it would seem to me that this person would have a crushing burden of expectations visited upon him or her in terms of independence. Who appoints the commissioner? Is it the government? Is it the House? How does that work?

IPSA has at least a number of people, and there are a number of statutory requirements for some of the positions. But it also has to be remembered that it is a Speaker's committee that actually chooses the members for IPSA, so that might work. Given that there are more of them to choose in IPSA, it seems to me that perhaps you could satisfy marginally more people than you could with the one person, and because this is much bigger than a Manitoba legislature, maybe that would be better.

[Mark G. Watters]

They have 57 members.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Yes, there are only 57 members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Richards, you'll finish us off today. You have four minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to have you both back.

As you know, I come from Alberta, and we have a saying, “All hat and no cattle”. That is a saying that I think could very aptly apply to the NDP when it comes to transparency—“All talk, no action”. Certainly we're hearing all this talk today about things on their website. Well, it's disclosure that of course Parliament provides. On Mr. Julian's website, for example, it's buried way down at the bottom. When you look at the actions we're taking and the Liberals are taking, there's certainly proactive disclosure. I just wanted to point that out, that there is some level of transparency that comes with that, in terms of disclosing your travel and hospitality on a line-by-line basis. Hopefully, we'll bring them into that at some point. They seem quite reluctant for some reason.

I want to continue my questioning in relation to expenses. My questions will be mainly for you, Mr. Watters, but, Ms. O'Brien, if there's something you feel you can add, please do.

Mr. Julian had a question about a new independent agency, something like an IPSA, which, as we heard from the IPSA officials themselves, actually works quite a bit like the Board of Internal Economy that currently exists. I believe 21 employees are responsible for adjudicating the claims put in by members of Parliament. You indicated that essentially, if something like that were created, those individuals would just have to move over and basically replicate what they do now under a different organization.

[Mark G. Watters]

That's right.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I take it from that comment that you essentially feel that what's being done now is quite sufficient, in terms of combing through the expense claims that are put in, that you feel they're being adjudicated in a fulsome way and that the process is quite sufficient as it exists now.

[Mark G. Watters]

That's correct. I do.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

The bottom line has to do with the kinds of things we've seen with the four senators who have had a lot of publicity recently based on some of the inappropriate expense claims that were made. IPSA was created in the U.K. as a result of some significant concerns that arose with some of the expenses being claimed by members there. I would assume you would feel that with the process we have, there's really no way we could see.... I know there are no guarantees in life, but there's really no way we could see, given the magnitude of expenses.... I suppose there is always the odd thing that could slip through, but we wouldn't see those kinds of things happening in our House of Commons because of the way our expense claims are adjudicated currently. Is that fair?

[Mark G. Watters]

The answer to that, Mr. Chair, as I think was said earlier by Mr. MacKenzie, is that the U.K. model was built on allowances rather than reimbursement against receipt, and our system is built on reimbursement against receipt. So the chance of that happening here would be much lower. There'd have to be collusion and there'd have to be—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

It would be significantly less likely.

[Mark G. Watters]

—dummy receipts actually provided to us for reimbursement. It would be fraud, as opposed to a regime in which it's based more on allowances. There's a lot of history as to why that is the case in the U.K. There was a huge push to keep salaries low and keep allowances high, and the House and IPSA would talk to you about that if you were to call them back.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Sure.

[Mark G. Watters]

The regime we have here is quite different. Even in the salary of a parliamentarian in Canada versus a parliamentarian in the U.K., there's a huge difference, and they're beginning to grapple with that in the U.K. The drivers are completely different.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

I know it goes quickly.

We're going to call that our stopping spot for today. We would like to thank our witnesses again for coming back and helping us with our study.

We will suspend for just a minute while we go in camera to discuss what we're doing next.

[Proceedings continue in camera]