Evidence of meeting #80 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gift.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Milliken  Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Noon

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker, for being here. It's always enlightening to have you here, not only as a Speaker but also as a student of Parliament and history.

Of course, you know better than most that our form of democracy is one of representative democracy. Therefore, it always seems to me that when we're talking about these kinds of things, the one player who's missing at the table is the public. The concern is that this can look awfully clubby to non-politicians, to the public, who say, “Isn't it convenient that the members of the club get to write the rules for the club, decide what benefits the club can have, and then decide all the procedures for confirming them?” From the outside looking in, it tends to look a little different. Then, of course, there's the commissioner's perspective, which is unique because of the expertise and the properly narrow focus of their concerns. Then there are the members of Parliament themselves.

In terms of process, can you give us any suggestions on how we might involve the public? This is recognizing that there isn't an obvious body, that I can think of, to which someone can go and ask that somebody be sent. Given that we're the ones who are elected to be the representatives of the public here, it's not straightforward as to how we would cover that off. It seems to me that it's critically important that at some point there be that perspective in developing this. Beyond just passing judgment at the end of the day on what we've concluded, could there actually be some input, some opportunity, for that public view from the outside looking in?

Given all your experience, do you have any thoughts on how we might be able to cover off that critical perspective? At the end of the day, that's the perspective that matters the most. Does the public believe that their elected representatives are creating proper rules and adhering to the rules, and that those rules reflect the priorities of the public and not just of the members of the club?

I'd like your thoughts on that, sir.

Noon

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

Well, you could do that, but it might be useful for members, or candidates for election, to have meetings with members of their parties locally to discuss how the House operates in terms of reporting members' expenses, reporting members' salaries, reporting gifts that members receive, and all that sort of stuff. Have somebody do a presentation on how this is handled, how it's done, and see if they're happy with it. The trouble is that we get a view from the media, who go after one issue.

A bunch of members went on a cruise, let's say.

Noon

An hon. member

A cruise?

Noon

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

I'm just making this up. The cruise was on the St. Lawrence Seaway and it was an overnight thing. They were on this vessel, and they were treated to dinner and breakfast. It has to be worth more than $200, let's say. Maybe it's worth $500. Do they declare it as a gift? Do they have to declare it as a gift?

This kind of stuff could be discussed at a meeting like that. If changes in the rules are needed because some opportunity like that is given or a gift like that is given, then sure, maybe the public should have some knowledge of it. Maybe it should be declared if it isn't already required to be declared. It's that kind of discussion, I think, that could happen on this and should continue to happen.

All I'm saying is that I don't think you need to lower the value to $200, $100, or $30 for declaration purposes. It's stuff like that. I don't think the public is that concerned about little gifts that various organizations give to members in the form of maybe a book, maybe a paper, maybe a meal, maybe a reception, maybe a bottle of wine, maybe a photograph album, or whatever it might be. I think we need to say that there are rules in place and that members can't accept a gift of more than x without declaring it, so the public hears that they got that.

I think most members of the public would say, “That's fine by me. I don't want to hear that you went to a reception and had a glass of wine and a piece of cheese and spoke to the people there”.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Well, it depends on the temperature of the cheese.

12:05 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

12:05 p.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

True, too true.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thanks, Chair.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Speaker Milliken, it's always great to have you here as a guest. As usual, you've left us with maybe more questions than answers, but that's what you're good at, so it's fantastic. Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

Thank you for having me.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'd love to find the day when this committee got all the answers it needed at the end of the day and just had to write them down on paper, but that's not how it works. You know that because you've been in this chair too. We thank you for coming. I'm certain that this committee will have you here again to take the expertise out of your brain whenever we can. Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

Thank you very much.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'll suspend for a couple of minutes and go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]