Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 2nd, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Reid.

We'll go to Madame Latendresse for seven minutes, please.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ambassador, I have a few questions for you, then I will have some for Professor Frank.

I would like to clarify something. You said that over two million French citizens live abroad. Obviously, that number doesn't include individuals in overseas departments and territories.

[H.E. Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

Absolutely not. They are on the national territory.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You already have the system in each of these overseas departments and territories. You have already arranged it so that those individuals can vote the same way as if they were in France. In fact, they are on French territory.

[H.E. Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

It is the national territory.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You said that there are also two million French citizens who live outside the national territory.

Do you know how many of those French citizens vote, in general?

[H.E. Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

It depends on the election. It is difficult to estimate the number of voters based on whether the votes were cast abroad or by proxy in France.

I would simply like to correct what Professor Frank just said. During a legislative election, for instance, French citizens may choose to vote in France for a member from their riding. They are not required to vote for the riding abroad. They choose their representation.

The levels are higher for presidential elections, obviously. Voter turnout is very high for elections for the president of the Republic. We're talking about over 50% of French citizens abroad.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

So about one million people.

[H.E. Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

Those citizens who are registered on the electoral lists abroad. I don't have exact numbers, but they are significant numbers, which can make a difference during an election.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I'll explain the basis of my question. According to the numbers we have currently, about 2.8 million Canadians live abroad. Of that number, barely 6,000 have participated in elections. In my opinion, the changes made by Bill C-50 won't help increase the number of these people and help these millions of Canadian citizens who, I think, have the right to vote but can't because the current system is just too complicated. I think these changes are instead harmful.

I think that if we compare our system to the French system, which seems to really encourage every French citizen to take part in the electoral process, we will see that we still have a lot of work to do.

Professor Frank, my question has to do with the other obstacles faced by Canadians living abroad. You spoke about it earlier.

You and Mr. Reid mentioned the driver's licence. Information I recently received indicates that certain U.S. states require individuals who want a driver's licence from that state to give up the licence they already have. I was quite surprised to learn that. I find it very difficult to justify. Yet that's the kind of situation that we need to consider if we are asking Canadians to prove their residency, their identity and their citizenship using Canadian ID cards. I have a lot of trouble understanding why we are creating obstacles to voting.

In terms of the postal system, you said that it sometimes takes three weeks. When I lived in Moscow, it would take three months to get a letter from my parents. We say we're trying to harmonize the system, but in reality, the experience of citizens living abroad is something else.

Could you give me a reason that justifies the changes that we want to make to the Canadian electoral system?

[Prof. Gillian Frank]

Are you asking me to look for a rationale for this legislation?

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Yes.

[Prof. Gillian Frank]

I don't see a good one. It doesn't seem to help voters like me participate in the system. A cynical person might see this as an attempt to work alongside the court battle that is currently ongoing to maintain the disenfranchised status of expat Canadians.

The legislation says it's in response to Justice Penny's decision to account for the new numbers of recently enfranchised voters. I don't know what was broken about the system before, or what in the system before was incapable of accommodating these same voters. Again, as I said in my opening statement, this seems to be a solution in search of a problem, or it seems to be a solution for the problem of newly enfranchised expat voters.

To your earlier statement about drivers' licences, when I moved to Maine after grad school for my first position, I got a Maine driver's licence. Until that time, for seven years, I had held onto my Ontario driver's licence, mostly because I was a poor graduate student who couldn't afford a car. I finally was able to buy one, I registered my car, and I needed a Maine licence.

I asked to keep my Ontario driver's licence as a souvenir. My mindset was that it was my hope to return to Canada as soon as possible, as soon as I could find gainful employment there. But the DMV in Maine said I must relinquish my licence, as they don't allow two licences to be kept. The same was true for my wife when she moved to New York state. The same is true in New Jersey, where I currently reside. This is a common practice.

It is my understanding—and again, I would want to double-check my figures—that the majority of expats live in the United States. They are all facing a similar situation, if they choose to drive.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Simms.

Welcome again today, Mr. Simms. You have seven minutes.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you for the warm welcome, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it, as always.

One thing you said, Ambassador, that I found quite striking and that seems to me prevalent everywhere, except for what we're facing now in this legislation, is that the system favours the voter. This to us is a default under section 3 of the charter, where it says that we have the right to vote. The government should do what it can to help enable that person to vote.

One of the big problems we have with the bill we're dealing with in Canada is that you're eliminating the permanent list of voters. You have probably heard now by testimony how difficult it is, when an election is called, to exercise your right to vote. It becomes problematic. We don't have Internet voting and don't have the immediacy that you have. In your voters list, you said, you must register by December 31 for the following year. In essence, is that the list that you use on a permanent basis for all elections?

[H.E. Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

Yes. The list is verified every year on December 31. It is consolidated internationally every year on December 31 in order to be validated centrally in Paris. That's the list that will be valid for all elections for the following year.

However, as mentioned, in our system, citizens can change their registration on the electoral list in France and abroad at any point during the year for the following elections.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

This list, in your opinion and the government's opinion, helps to favour the voter, as you said, and allows and makes it an easier process to participate in all levels of governing.

[H.E. Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

Absolutely because registration on the list is what gives the right to vote.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you.

One other thing is something you said that struck me as interesting. I haven't seen this yet. One of the problems the government cites is what we call “riding shopping”. If someone wants to vote in our election, which is “first past the post”, they can choose whatever riding they wish, which favours certain parties, or maybe not, but that's what they're leery about, and in many cases most of us would be.

But you said you can provide a familial link in order to vote. Can I provide a birth certificate, if I were a French citizen living in Canada to allow me to vote in the district in which I was born?

[Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

It's not a birth certificate you need to present. It is a familial link with a person, a voter, in that riding.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Okay.

[Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

For instance, if your father, your son, or your daughter is a voter in one riding, then you can register in that riding.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I see, so it's a direct family member who resides in a certain area. You can do that.

[Nicolas Marcel Jacques Chapuis]

Yes, as proof of residence.

You have many expatriates who have not kept a home, an apartment, a residency in their country of origin, but they have family and they can opt to link the right to vote to the riding of that family.