Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 1st, 2018

[Stéphan Déry]

For us in the industry, we have 100 freelancers who work with us right now. If there's a demand that is constant and it requires the translation bureau to hire an indigenous interpreter, then we will have them on staff, just as we do for a lot of our official languages interpreters. We have about 70 of them on staff. We also deal with freelancers. If they're all freelancers, though, and we don't tell them when they're going to be asked to come to Parliament, then they may take other contracts.

So as I was saying, a day or so makes it easier for them to schedule and to arrange their professional life around working in Parliament. You have a lot more consistency and probably a better interpreter and a higher quality interpretation. They will over time develop this parliamentary experience in the language that MP Saganash was talking about.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you very much. It's been very helpful for us that you're making all the arrangements possible for this to occur on a reasonable basis. I think it's very exciting for Parliament and for all of us on the committee.

While we're shifting witnesses, I want to ask the committee something.

We could get our last two witnesses into the first hour of the next meeting, if that's okay. There's one we could do later, which would not interrupt our flow or anything, and that's the Northern Territory of Australia. They're not available the week of May 22, which would be an evening thing, so I'll leave that out for now. On Thursday, if we did our last witnesses in the first hour, would it be okay on Tuesday, then, to give instructions to the analyst for the report?

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

They could basically start now because we don't have a lot left to do. Then we could still go ahead with the Northern Territory if we want. As we did with Costa Rica, if there's any little thing that needs to be added, we could do that.

We'll suspend while we change witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Welcome back to the 100th meeting of the committee.

For our second panel, we're pleased to be joined by Jérémie Séror, Director and Associate Dean, Official Languages and Bilingualism Institute, the University of Ottawa. We have Johanne Lacasse, Director General, from the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government; and Melissa Saganash, Director of Cree-Quebec relations, Grand Council of the Crees and Cree Nation Government.

Thank you, all, for being here. It's great that you can make it.

Now we'll have opening statements from each of you, and we'll start with Mr. Séror.

[Jérémie Séror, Director and Associate Dean, University of Ottawa, Official Languages and Bilingualism Institute]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today on the use of indigenous languages in proceedings of the House of Commons.

By way of background, I am the Director of the Official Languages and Bilingualism Institute and the Associate Dean of the Faculty of Arts at the University of Ottawa. I'm also an Associate Professor.

My main field of research focuses on the educational, social and political dimensions of developing advanced literacies. I am particularly interested in educational approaches that promote the academic and social success of language learners.

My research highlights the importance of languages as a means of socialization and integration. They carry values and cultures. They are often the tool for identity building and social construction par excellence. Learning to use a new language is developing skills that facilitate communication with another person. It is also a way of opening oneself up to new ways of understanding and expressing the world.

Languages are therefore powerful political tools and language policies, which seek to preserve, encourage and develop the multilingual identity of individuals in society; they are seen all over the world as important tools to ensure a better mutual understanding and greater openness to others in this world that is increasingly marked by diversity and the need for “intracultural” and “intralinguistic” exchanges.

This vision of language learning and the benefits of multilingualism is, of course, at the heart of Canada's major policies. Canada has long been a leader in the field of language teaching and language policies that seek to promote French and English bilingualism in our particular context.

In terms of the topic being studied by this committee, although the discussions in Canada have often revolved around the issue of learning French and English, I confirm that universities are now expressing a growing interest in programs and initiatives that also focus on the development of indigenous languages and literacies.

This interest reflects the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in 1996 and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission almost 20 years later. Both of those documents have dealt with the issue of indigenous languages and call for initiatives to stop their decline or, consequently, to encourage their development.

I think there is no doubt that allowing the use of indigenous languages in proceedings of the House of Commons would serve to advance those recommendations.

Allowing the use of indigenous languages in proceedings of the House of Commons would enhance the symbolic status and function of indigenous languages at the federal level. This simple act of making indigenous languages visible and heard as part of the activities of the House of Commons, the elected legislative branch of Parliament, would result in enhancing these languages, the communities attached to them, and the contributions of indigenous peoples to Canadian heritage.

To achieve this goal, it is important to remain flexible and to keep in mind a number of factors, including the great diversity of Canada's first peoples—Inuit, Métis and first nations—their needs and the unique setting of the House of Commons. Nevertheless, the task is not impossible, in my opinion. I think we could, in fact, be inspired by similar initiatives that have been previously taken in Canada.

For example—I'm sure this has already been discussed—the 1988 Northwest Territories Official Languages Act, which is now almost 20 years old, already recognizes in section 6 that: “Everyone has the right to use any Official Language in the debates and other proceedings of the Legislative Assembly.” Subsection 7(3) states that: "Copies of the sound recordings of the public debates of the Legislative Assembly, in their original and interpreted versions, shall be provided to any person on reasonable request.”

Similarly, the 2008 Nunavut Official Languages Act recognizes the same rights. Subsection 4(1) of the act recognizes that: “Everyone has the right to use any Official Language in the debates and other proceedings of the Legislative Assembly.” Subsection 4(3) states: “Copies of the sound recordings of the public debates of the Legislative Assembly, in their original and interpreted versions, shall be provided to any person on reasonable request.”

In my opinion, the House of Commons could adopt provisions similar to those of the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. We could also envision procedures similar to those proposed by the Senate that allows the use of an indigenous language, and offers simultaneous interpretation and translation services, provided reasonable notice is given.

From the perspective of applied linguistics, allowing members of the House of Commons to speak in an indigenous language would not only recognize their right to express their culture and language during debates, but would also allow all members of the House of Commons and Canadians nationwide who listen to these debates to gain from the values and beliefs encoded within indigenous languages. All languages have their own distinct ideals and ways of thinking, and that is often something that draws people towards languages different from their own. It is what the Report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, entitled “Looking Forward, Looking Back”, called “a fundamentally different world view [that] continues to exist and struggles for expression whenever Aboriginal people come together”.

Such provisions, as well as the potential sharing and enhancing of existing Senate resources would allow the House of Commons to send a strong signal of support for preserving, promoting and revitalizing indigenous languages, as well as acknowledging the special place indigenous peoples have in Canadian society.

However, to successfully implement this type of legislative measure—I am sure that you have also talked about this a lot—the Government of Canada and the House of Commons will have to implement strategies and invest resources.

I will now focus on one of these measures. Just as the Government of Canada did the day after passing the Official Languages Act in 1969, this type of initiative would probably require an investment to make sure that universities include the indigenous languages of Canada and indigenous language teaching in the curriculum, as well as train teachers. They will also need to train translators and interpreters to provide a pool of translators and interpreters, as well as a new wave of professional interpreters who will be necessary for the success of this new legislative measure.

In my opinion, this investment and interest expressed by the Government of Canada would have a significant multiplier effect. An investment would help put indigenous languages on par with other modern languages, and would show young students everywhere who are interested in indigenous languages studies that they could actually have careers as teachers, translators and interpreters. In my opinion, this would be an attractive virtuous circle.

This investment would also meet one of the recommendations of the “Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada: Calls to Action” document:

We call upon post-secondary institutions to create university and college degree and diploma programs in Aboriginal languages.

An initiative such as the one we've discussed today would invigorate this type of recommendation.

When the Official Languages Act was originally implemented, the translation bureau had to face the same challenges, that is, finding a pool of interpreters. Translation students were recruited directly on campus. Some students were even offered an incentive that would allow their university years to count in their pension plans if they worked at the translation bureau. Those positive measures allowed universities to develop those programs, and allowed the government to have a pool of highly qualified translators and interpreters, who are now internationally respected due to the quality of their work.

Clearly, the demand for translation and interpretation will not be as large. On the one hand, the demand will be far more arbitrary and ad hoc if the legislative measures resembled those adopted by the territories. On the other hand, the source of the demand would be very diversified, because of the dozens of indigenous languages commonly spoken today, which isn't something to consider when systematically translating between French and English, our two official languages.

Notwithstanding these differences, it is essential for Parliament to be able to depend on well trained and qualified human resources. That is why I emphasize that the House of Commons and the Government of Canada could not only count on universities, but also on the expertise and collaboration of indigenous communities and their elders to supply and train interpreters. I am convinced that they would be greatly interested in any initiative that would allow their languages to be brought to life and heard in the public sphere. Allowing children, young people and seniors the opportunity to hear their language being spoken at the heart of Parliament would be a very powerful gesture.

This is where I will end my presentation. Thank you for listening to me. It would be my pleasure to answer questions from the members of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Meegwetch.

Now we'll have Ms. Lacasse.

[Johanne Lacasse, Director General, Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. Wachiya. Kwe.

We wish to thank the members of the committee for inviting the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government to appear before the committee, and we hope that our presentation will contribute to your study on the use of indigenous languages in the proceedings of the House of Commons.

We also wish to acknowledge the efforts of our member of Parliament for the riding of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, Mr. Romeo Saganash, in recognizing the importance of using indigenous languages in House of Commons proceedings.

Meegwetch, Mr. Saganash.

My name is Johanne Lacasse. I am the Director General of the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government and a member of the Anishinabe nation.

[Melissa Saganash, Director of Cree-Québec Relations, Grand Council of the Crees/Cree Nation Government, Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, members.

[Witness speaks in Cree]

To my family, hello.

My name is Melissa Saganash. I'm the Director of Cree-Québec Relations for the Grand Council of the Crees. I also serve as a member of the James Bay Regional Government technical committee, so I have the honour of working with Johanne Lacasse every so often. I'm also a member of the the Waswanipi Cree first nation of James Bay.

Today our presentation will essentially cover topics pertaining to general provisions of the governance model of the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government and primarily on key factors of our practical experience in the implementation of the multi-language simultaneous translation that is used by our citizens, in French, English, and Cree.

To set you in context of how and why we are in the position to deliver such a service, it's important to understand the essence of a particular agreement that was signed with the province and the Cree nation.

On July 24, 2012, the Government of Quebec signed an agreement with the Cree nation government, known as the Agreement on Governance in the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Territory between the Crees of Eeyou Istchee and the Gouvernement du Québec. This historic agreement resulted in the abolishment of the former Municipalité de Baie-James, where only mayors of the municipalities and localities of James Bay would govern, and led to the creation of the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government. This new structure now includes a seat at the table for each elected chief in addition to the mayors of the territory—a first of its kind in the country. This agreement provides for the modernization of the governance regime that once prevailed in the territory, and promotes the inclusion of the Eeyou in decision-making powers.

Essentially, the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government now provides significant Cree participation in decision-making over shared lands and resources. The new regional government reflects a vision of a path for our territory based on the noble principles of inclusiveness, democracy, and social harmony.

[Johanne Lacasse]

I would like to share a brief description of our designated territory, the territory of Eeyou Istchee James Bay. As you probably know, it's within the federal ridings of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou and Abitibi—Témiscamingue.

The territory covers a large portion of northern Quebec, which is between the 49th and 55th parallel in Quebec. It's approximately 277,000 square kilometres if you include all the category III lands of our territory. Of course, that excludes category I and II lands, as well as the municipal territories. We have four municipalities and nine Cree communities.

Overall, we're looking at a territory that represents approximately 17% of the territory of Quebec. We are considered the largest municipality in the world. If we look at the population density, that represents approximately 0.05 inhabitants per square kilometre. The estimated population is approximately 20,000 Cree and 17,000 Jamesians.

If we look at the composition of our local governance, Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government local governance is carried out by way of the council of the regional government, which for its first 10 years is to be composed of 11 Cree representatives, 11 Jamesian representatives and one non-voting representative that is appointed by the Gouvernement du Québec.

The Cree representatives consist of the grand chief and the deputy grand chief of the Grand Council of the Crees and the Cree Nation Government, and nine members that are chiefs of the Cree communities elected by the board council of the Grand Council and the Cree Nation Government.

As for the Jamesian representatives, they consist of elected members of the local municipal councils, the majority of which are mayors, and of course, some of the councillors of Chapais, Chibougamau, Lebel-sur-Quévillon, and Matagami, as well as the non-Crees in the Eeyou Istchee James Bay territory.

If you look at the governance model and the concept of the regional government, our regional government is subject to Quebec's Cities and Towns Act, which in this case is pertinent today as it requires a public call-for-tenders process for all our professional services.

The chairman of the council is designated in alternation by representatives of the Cree and the representatives of the Jamesians for a two-year mandate, so they alternate every two years.

A minimum of six regular council meetings are held per year. Our council meetings are held at various locations throughout our territory, including the Jamesian municipalities, as well as our nine Cree communities. The locations of our council meetings are held in an alternate manner, which means a Jamesian municipality followed by a Cree community, and so on, which represents three regular council meetings in Cree communities and three regular council meetings held in one of our four municipalities.

Also, what's interesting here is that our council members may participate by telephone conference call for a maximum of once per year should they be unable to attend in person.

The documents tabled at council meetings and presentations are made available in French and English, and provided two weeks in advance whenever possible. We have an in-house translator who translates from English and French and vice versa.

Our simultaneous translation services are provided in English, French, and Cree during council meetings. Our council meetings are also broadcast live through live streaming, and broadcast live through Cree radio broadcasting in the Cree communities whenever possible.

[Melissa Saganash]

Here are some of the guiding principles in the implementation of the multi-language simultaneous translation services that we provide.

On the basis that Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government was created to ensure the inclusion and participation of the Cree or Eeyou people in decision-making over shared lands and resources, our guiding principles are based on legislative frameworks. These are just extracts that we'll share with you about what we've included in these agreements. In the act establishing the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Regional Government in section 36 of chapter VII:

The Regional Government must, where applicable, take the necessary measures to have any text intended to be understood by a Cree translated into either Cree or English.

Nothing in the first paragraph must be interpreted as authorizing an infringement of the right to work in French in the Regional Government....

Furthermore, we have chapter V of the Agreement on Governance in the Eeyou Istchee James Bay Territory between the Crees of Eeyou Istchee and the Gouvernement du Québec. In section 108 of chapter V in the rules of operation, it says:

108. Cree and French shall be the principal languages of the Regional Government.

109. The Regional Government may use either French or English in its internal communications and language of work.

110. A citizen may communicate verbally or in writing with the Regional Government, including at meetings of the council, in Cree, English or French.

111. Texts and documents intended for Cree individuals or for the Cree population in general shall be translated into Cree and English, including any document enabling the users to exercise a right or to meet an obligation.

We've been proactive as well with article 13.2 of the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples to ensure effective measures “to ensure that indigenous peoples [in our territory] can understand and be understood in political...and administrative proceedings, where necessary through the provision of interpretation or by other appropriate means.”

[Johanne Lacasse]

We would like to share some of the considerations in the implementation of our simultaneous translation services. These are the more practical considerations that we were faced with when implementing our translation services.

As I mentioned earlier, the fact that we are subject to the Cities and Towns Act means that we are subject also to a call for a public tender process for our simultaneous translation services.

There is also the additional cost of providing simultaneous translation services. This is a major factor. The revenues of the regional government are basically—and I would say practically solely—based on the taxation revenues of the citizens of the category III lands of our territory. The costs are covered through the taxation revenues that are generated.

We've also considered the need to create a bank of qualified and available Cree interpreters who are hired on a contractual basis.

We've also taken into consideration the fact that we needed to compose with various Cree dialects in the territory, which means that there are the northern and southern Cree dialects and also the coastal and inland Cree dialects that were taken into consideration.

The technical aspects of the contents pertaining to municipal matters and our contents are of a very technical nature. They're dealing with municipal and land use planning matters, so we've taken into consideration those aspects. We've also foreseen the space that is required to accommodate translation booths and the work areas that are required for the technicians who accompany our interpreters. This means that we have one booth for the French and English interpreters. We have a second booth for the Cree interpreters. We also have a work area for the two technicians who accompany the four interpreters.

The cost, as I mentioned earlier, includes the translation fees and the lodging and travel costs. I would say that the overall translation cost represents anywhere from $100,000 to $150,000 per year for the regional government.

The fact is that we do hold our meetings in remote areas, and that includes as far north as Whapmagoostui, which does not have any access road. We do have a challenge with accessing reliable high-speed Internet in certain remote areas.

For access to reliable telephone communication lines, because of the fact that members do call in or join by conference call, it means that we need two separate telephone lines, one line to accommodate the English and French, and a second phone line to accommodate the members requiring Cree translation.

We have been experimenting with new technologies such as remote or distant translation, but we're not there yet, for the sole reason that we have to compose with different considerations—that is, we have the live streaming, we require the simultaneous translation, and there are the members who are joining in by phone—so we haven't yet arrived at identifying the possibility of introducing new technologies for remote translation. I was listening to the presentation earlier. It's very difficult. Our interpreters have mentioned to us that they prefer to be on location for the translation.

There's also radio broadcasting, so that's another consideration.

I would have to say that the added value to the quality of the implementation of our simultaneous translation services depends on the devotion and dedication of the regional government public services that are operating under time constraints and under a lot of pressure at certain times. In particular, our public servants have managed their way through an extensive administrative transformation to ensure that services are based on an inclusive approach for all citizens of our territory.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you very much. Meegwetch. Mahsi cho.

Now we'll go to some questions. We'll start with Ms. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to be sharing my time with Mr. Simms.

My first question is for Mr. Séror. You said that the use of indigenous languages here in Parliament would definitely have an effect on the desire to speak those languages or would reawaken people to wanting to use those languages again. I heard from a witness before this committee, also, an aspirational goal of our translation bureau helping academia to standardize some of the languages, to help finalize, maybe, where there's controversy over what word to use at what particular moment.

What are your thoughts on that? How much do you think that the work that's done here through our translation bureau could help serve the work that you do in your department?

[Jérémie Séror]

I think it would, indeed, be one of those gestures that sort of sparks a bunch of interesting consequences. It would actually spark a number of problems to be solved, including, for example, how to write a particular word or what's the perfect word for filibustering. These are the kinds of problems where, because there's a need, all of a sudden there's a need to actually talk about these things and look for a solution, in collaboration with all the parties involved, of course.

As soon as you start to apply those solutions, then you see if it's a good solution, and then it sort of gets this virtuous circle going. With time, what you would hope would happen is that some of these problems would no longer be problems. They would become things that have stabilized a little bit.

Having a real need to think about how we can do interpretation or how we might translate certain terms or concepts creates a need for the discussion to happen with academics, but also with the students who are working with the academics, with the future translators. This then launches the.... It's not that these conversations are not happening right now, but when you have a real objective tied to some of these conversations, to these functions, it certainly creates a motivation to look at these things and invest the time and energy that is often required to get at solutions.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Would you see there being a role for universities to play in helping the translation bureau achieve its goals and do it accurately?

[Jérémie Séror]

Yes, I think so. Certainly, I'm not representing the school of translation, although we're in the same building and we talk, but certainly the field of translation has expertise and has, over time, looked at issues such as the challenge of translating something that's not translatable. It's never a “one word for one word” equivalent. There are different theories, and there are different best practices. There's the development of resources that can be used and certain kinds of training that can be developed. I think that theoretical...or the knowledge of what the best practices are in relationship with the people on the ground who are actually putting these things into implementation is always going to be a very fruitful interaction.

If the challenges are related to a certain language, then that's where people tend to orient their conversations. However, as soon as you create a new need or a new type of interaction, then you're going to see, I think, that some of the universities will be happy to think about these questions, or to apply what they know and guide what's going to be happening in the future with regard to providing quality interpretation and translation.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

In your opinion, what indigenous languages have been most developed or most taught in universities up to this point?

[Jérémie Séror]

That's a good question. Although I'm not familiar with the whole list, the big ones being taught at the University of Ottawa are Cree, Ojibwa, and Inuktitut. Year by year, it depends on which individuals are available to teach those languages and also where the various groups are interested in having the languages taught. Sometimes they will bring people to the community, or sometimes they will come to the campus.

It depends on the year. I don't think it's clearly established yet, but at the moment, it tends to be the languages that have the most speakers.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

I'll pass the rest of my time to Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Ruby.

I come from a world where, every time you have a problem, you seek out a person who had the problem before and look for best practices. Ms. Lacasse and Ms. Saganash, when it comes to regional governance, I think there's a lot for us to learn when you're dealing with a larger assortment of dialects and languages than we are, with just the two languages.

You mentioned a couple of issues. You have six meetings per year. What do these meetings look like in the form of translation with different dialects? What is the main one, and what are the different dialects that you have to deal with?

[Melissa Saganash]

I was just reading an article, actually, before we came in. When we began our sessions of the regional government in the north, a local reporter came to watch a session.

In his opinion, Chibougamau felt like the United Nations.

That's exactly what it looks like. It's 22 people sitting around a table. There's Cree, French, and English. The chair might be speaking English, French, or Cree, depending on the subject or who is being addressed. Next to the large table is a translation booth, set up so that we can watch everybody who is in the room. We have technicians who've figured out some sort of magic with the lines. There are three lines. I know that once you go beyond two lines, a bit of technicality gets involved, but they've sorted it out.

We are now transportable. We can pick up the regional government, and if you tell us where to go, we'll land there and provide the services in three languages.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

When you say that the services you provide are transportable, do you mean the whole technical outlay of how you do translation?

[Melissa Saganash]

It's everything. It's a road show. We have roadies.