Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 28th, 2018

[Allen Sutherland]

They could certainly ask the contact, but—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It doesn't obligate the party to give over the information.

[Allen Sutherland]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Why not empower the voter to be able to know what information the...?

Let me ask you this. We have a firewall within my office. Somebody comes into my office and talks about an immigration case with my staff. Every party has a database to manage that file. We're working on it. I just did one with a minister an hour ago. None of that information can transfer over to the dataset saying that this person is interested in immigration issues.

Are we required by law to have that firewall right now? Do you know?

[Allen Sutherland]

I don't know. You might be better placed to—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Well, this is an interesting thing when we're dealing with Bill C-76 and we're talking about data.

[Allen Sutherland]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Did the government of the day, in doing a generational change to our voting laws, say that thou shalt never transfer, for incumbents, for those working in political office, information gathered through your work as a member of Parliament over to the party database side? We all hope that we all have good ethics and that every office prevents that transfer, but does Bill C-76 have anything to say about that?

[Allen Sutherland]

Not to my knowledge.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Now, for a Canadian, you can understand their perspective. They come into one of our offices with a file, a case, that they're working on and that we're working on in a non-partisan fashion as an MP. In terms of an amendment to say that information cannot ever be transferred under penalty of expulsion, Canadians would want to know that, wouldn't they? We can attest to it and tell a citizen coming into our office that we'll never do it if you walk into Larry's office in Whitehorse, but why not enshrine it in law?

[Allen Sutherland]

This would be an example of where parties could set examples for other parties by making sure their policy is clear and obvious on that point, and then people could compare it.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Setting an example is great—

[Allen Sutherland]

But it's transparency—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

—but the average voter is not going to look through the policy section of each party's website and say, “Let me get into the legalese about your specific guidance rules—not mandatory rules—about how you're handling my data,” and then be able to say that the Liberals' rules look like this, the Conservatives' rules look like that, and the NDP's look like this, so they're going to vote this way. I just don't think it's a reasonable expectation.

It's like those disclaimers on websites that say “to be able to use this app, click if you agree”, and then there are 47 pages of legalese. We've proven in court that's not a verifiable test that lets companies off the hook. I don't think this is a verifiable test that lets parties off the hook for the misappropriation of Canadians' data when executing an election.

[Allen Sutherland]

I understand. I have just two quick points.

The minister, in her remarks, said she was open both to amendments in that and to continued work by the committee in this area. The second thing is that it may not be important that Canadians do that cross-comparison—because I agree with you that not every Canadian will do it or is capable—but opinion leaders might, right? Opinion leaders—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes, but again, if we're doing something.... This is to say that in 2018 and 2019 the reality of conducting an election has fundamentally changed—

[Allen Sutherland]

Right.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

—from what it was a generation ago in terms of the ability.... People used to look for Sears catalogues and library cards. The data sources were limited. We had door-knocking and phone banks. Now, any time someone clicks a survey on Facebook, we've learned that they might be trolled or exposed, and their data might be sold to political actors, to third parties or registered parties—it doesn't matter to me—and suddenly they're getting only this kind of information.... I think it's only going to get worse, so I wonder why, in a generational change, we're not doing more about it, Mr. Chair.

We're of course going to come to it with amendments. We just went through Bill C-69. We put 300 amendments on the table, and one was accepted, so you'll forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical about how open the government is. We'll see if it's any different on this omnibus bill. It's open, but not accepting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Now we'll open it up, particularly for someone who hasn't asked anything yet.

Mr. Bittle, Mr. Cullen, and then Mr. Richards.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I'd like to ask a question that goes back to the armed forces and spouses of members of the armed forces. Under the current regime, if a spouse of a member of the armed forces is away for a period of more than five years, do they fall into the same category as other expats?

[LCdr Jean-François Morin]

Currently there is an exception for the five-year limit for dependants of Canadian Forces members residing abroad with those members, so no, they currently don't fall within the five-year rule.

If I may add to that, however, Bill C-76 will bring an improvement for the dependants of Canadian Forces members residing with them abroad and also to other civilians who accompany the Canadian Forces members abroad. For example, RCMP officers could be participating in a mission with the Canadian Forces, or Global Affairs Canada, GAC, officials could be participating in a mission as well. They would still vote under division 3 of part 11 of the act. Currently, they are experiencing some difficulties voting under that division, due to the fact that Canadian Forces members serve in remote areas. With the postal services in those areas, it might not always be easy to get their special ballot kit and send it back to Elections Canada so that it would be received before 6 p.m. on election day.

Bill C-76 brings with it a legal obligation for Elections Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces to collaborate in order to make sure these civilians who accompany the forces abroad, including dependants, have an easier way to vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I asked the interim CEO this question. On the west coast, sometimes we get quite frustrated because so much of the vote has taken place and it is then released. There have been challenges all the way up to the Supreme Court about the release of information as to whether it is a citizen's right.

[Allen Sutherland]

Do you mean the election results?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes, the election results. We're talking about election night.