Evidence of meeting #109 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was election.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Mayrand  Former Chief Electoral Officer, As an Individual
Michael Pal  Assistant Professor and Director, Public Law Group, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Andrea Furlong  Executive Director, Council of Canadians
James Hicks  National Coordinator, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
Réal Lavergne  President, Fair Vote Canada
Ryan O'Connor  Lawyer and Director, Ontario Proud
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Lauzon

11 a.m.

Former Chief Electoral Officer, As an Individual

Marc Mayrand

I understand that concern. That's why, I guess.... Certainly, an improvement would be to at least have an independent audit, an independent yearly certification, so that now there's a proper policy in place that meets the standard and it is complying. It is something that I understand is largely used in the private industry, and that would, in a sense, address some of the concerns I hear you raising.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Thank you so much.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you very much for being here today. Your wise counsel is always very helpful.

11 a.m.

Former Chief Electoral Officer, As an Individual

Marc Mayrand

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

We'll suspend while we change witnesses.

11:04 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Good morning. Welcome back to the 109th meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

For today's panel, we are pleased to welcome Michael Pal, assistant professor and director, public law group, faculty of law, University of Ottawa, and Andrea Furlong, executive director, Council of Canadians.

I will now turn the floor over to Professor Pal for his opening statement. He will be followed by Ms. Furlong.

Thank you very much for coming. It's great to have you here.

11:04 a.m.

Professor Michael Pal Assistant Professor and Director, Public Law Group, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Thank you very much, members of the committee, for having me. I really appreciate the invitation to speak to these important issues.

I'm a professor of constitutional law and election law at the University of Ottawa, just down the road. I'm going to focus on what I think are four or five of the key take-aways in the bill. It's 349 pages, by my count, so I'm happy to discuss issues other than the ones I raise in my initial presentation.

The first one I want to flag, which Mr. Mayrand discussed, is the pre-writ spending limits. As of June 30 in an election year, there will be a spending limit, with the inflation factor, of about $1.5 million for political parties and $1 million for third parties. I think this is an extremely important and overdue amendment to the Elections Act. We've seen third parties and political parties from across the political spectrum—I think it's a non-partisan issue—using one of the large loopholes that exist in the Elections Act.

We have very tightly regulated spending during the election campaign period. That was found to be constitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada in a case called Harper. The obvious loophole was that spending rules were not applied in the pre-writ period, so you could simply spend millions of dollars, unregulated, uncapped, prior to the start of the official campaign. Third parties have increasingly been doing that in Canada, especially since the 2011 election, as have political parties, so having a pre-writ limit is extremely important.

If anything, I would have liked to see an even longer pre-writ period. I know there are constitutional concerns. The Harper case was about spending limits during the campaign period. This is pushing the constitutional envelope a little bit by putting in spending restrictions in the pre-writ period. The bill tries to deal with that by having it start only on June 30 rather than earlier, as occurs in some jurisdictions; changing the definition of “election advertising” to call it “partisan advertising” so that it will capture less advertising; and then also having quite generous, I would say, spending limits in terms of the total amount that's permitted in the pre-writ period. All those provisions in the act to try to manage the constitutional risk make sense to me, but I think that given the example we have in the United States and given the data we have about spending by third parties and political parties in recent Canadian elections, the bill could have been even more aggressive in pushing out a longer pre-writ period. I do think it's very necessary to have in the pre-writ period spending limits of the kind the bill has put in place.

I should say it would also apply to some activities beyond just advertising, which is important given that third parties are now doing many of the things we would traditionally understand political parties to have done in the past. There's been tons of evidence in the United States, in a number of recent election cycles, of their version of third parties doing things like Get Out The Vote, organizing campaign events, doing messaging—all the sorts of things that parties traditionally have done. I think that's an important feature of Bill C-76.

The second aspect of the bill that I'd like to discuss is the non-resident voting provision. Previously, you would lose your right to cast a ballot if you lived overseas for five or more years. The bill would get rid of that restriction. I also think that's a long overdue change and a really positive development for the more than one million Canadian citizens who may wish to exercise their right to vote. Even among those Canadians who are abroad for fewer than five years, there's been a small percentage voting. I think this will encourage parties and encourage citizens to be more engaged in the electoral process, and hopefully, will drive voter turnout up.

There is a Supreme Court case, which the committee will be aware of, Frank v. Canada. We are waiting to hear what the Supreme Court will say about the constitutionality of the five-year limit. Even if the court decides it's constitutional, it is still within the jurisdiction of Parliament to decide whether or not to get rid of the rule. Another feature of Bill C-76 that I applaud is expanding the right to vote to non-residents who are abroad for more than five years.

One area in which I'm a bit more critical of the bill is voter privacy. I paid great attention to Mr. Mayrand's comments. As you'll know, the bill requires parties simply to have policies and to address certain specific issues in those policies. Political parties do already have policies on privacy.

I would like to see provisions expanded so that parties will be obliged to actually follow specific rules, to not just have a policy on an issue but to meet certain standards, which the public and private sectors more generally do. Political parties are one of the only exceptions to PIPEDA and the Privacy Act. I think that is an anomaly that needs to be rectified, because parties, as you well know, now collect, use, and analyze enormous amounts of personally sensitive data.

In the earlier round of questions, there was a question about how it could be adapted to political parties. I think people should have a right to be notified if there is a breach of the rules. They should have a right to know what information a party holds about them.

Also, under very limited circumstances, I don't think political parties should be permitted to sell the data they collect. We want to facilitate the connection between citizens and parties. That's something we don't want to stop, but part of the trust mechanism there is that voters believe their data is going to be used for the political process, not for profit-making.

Second-last, on social media platforms, there is a new offence in the bill in terms of how social media platforms or advertising platforms generally should not be able to sell space to foreign entities. I think that's a very positive move. I would just draw the committee's attention to the current rules in the Elections Act that are imposed on TV broadcasters. They cannot charge more than the lowest basically available rate to any political party seeking to advertise. What this effectively means is that it gives political parties a right to have advertising time at a reasonable rate, but it also means that the same rate has to be charged to all political parties.

Political advertising is now happening to a great extent on Facebook. There is nothing in the current Elections Act or in Bill C-76 that would prevent Facebook, through what they call their “ad auction system”, from charging differential rates to different political parties. The current rule for broadcasters is in the Elections Act for a reason. There's no principled reason why that shouldn't also apply to social media advertisers, which may have commercial interests at heart when they're making decisions about their algorithms.

I would just conclude by saying that one of the other very positive features in the bill, which I don't think has gotten enough attention, is the 90% reimbursement for child care expenses for candidates. That is an important and quite practical measure to try to encourage a more diverse array of candidates in the political process.

Those are my initial comments. I look forward to your questions on any of those issues or the other matters in the bill.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you very much

Ms. Furlong.

11:10 a.m.

Andrea Furlong Executive Director, Council of Canadians

Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity given to the Council of Canadians, and me as executive director, to present today to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding Bill C-76.

I speak to the committee today as we prepare to go to court to defend the constitutional right of every Canadian of age to vote in next year's federal election.

The issues of greatest concern to us in the current legislation are those provisions that will rescind amendments to the Canada Elections Act made by the previous government in passing the so-called Fair Elections Act, which made it more difficult for the Chief Electoral Officer to communicate with Canadians about the electoral process and their right to vote; stripped the Chief Electoral Officer of his ability to authorize the voter information card as a means for proving an elector's residence or identity; diminished the independence and accountability of the Commissioner of Canada Elections; and effectively eliminated vouching as a means for people without the necessary identification to obtain a ballot.

In response to the Fair Elections Act, the Council of Canadians partnered with the Canadian Federation of Students to file a charter challenge, not only to repeal those problematic elements of the act but also to defend the most fundamental right in a democratic society: the right to vote. We launched the charter challenge because the Fair Elections Act made it harder for students, people who are de-housed, seniors, indigenous people, and others who have difficulty proving their identity and residence to vote. That application is to be heard by the Ontario superior court in October 2018, a date chosen so that the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer will have the six months he requires to implement the necessary changes, should we succeed, before the 2019 federal election. We certainly hope that the provisions of Bill C-76 will address the issues now before the court and will come into force in time to obviate the need for that hearing.

Until the bill receives royal assent, our case will proceed. We have amassed a substantial body of expert opinion, including from Harry Neufeld, the former chief electoral officer of British Columbia, stating that the Fair Elections Act effectively limits ballot access by increasing the administrative burden for any voter who does not possess acceptable documentation that proves their current address of residence. It has made the vouching process more intimidating to participants. It's difficult for all to understand and cumbersome for election officers to administer.

This also eliminates the discretion of the Chief Electoral Officer to allow any use of the voter identification card as a legitimate form of address identification. Elections Canada has described the problem in this way:

With regard to accessibility, a continued challenge in the identification regime is the difficulty some electors face in providing documentary proof of their residence. Among the larger challenges is that no piece of identification issued by the [federal government] contains all three elements required in a single piece by the Act: the elector's photograph, name and address.

The difficulty electors may encounter in proving their current address falls disproportionately on certain groups. As described by Elections Canada, these groups are indigenous people; electors living on first nations reserves; electors living in long-term care facilities, including seniors; youth, including students; the de-housed, also known as homeless electors; and electors who have recently moved or who have difficulty proving their physical address.

The Harper government's declared objectives in enacting the Fair Elections Act were to protect against fraud and to uphold the integrity of our electoral system, but study after study has shown that claims about in-person voter fraud have no foundation and serve as a pretext for measures intended to prevent unfriendly voters from being able to cast a ballot. In fact, public concern about voter fraud, as we saw following the 2011 election robocall scandal, was about organized efforts to deter people from voting, not about individuals seeking to vote fraudulently.

The groups I have highlighted who are disproportionately challenged to prove their identity and residence are electors who care deeply about a host of public policy issues, particularly those that affect their daily lives and that often become important electoral issues. They would have strong views about what government should be doing to deal with the problems they confront, and are keen to participate in the electoral process.

Under the Constitution, all Canadians are guaranteed the right to vote, yet for many, including tens of thousands of electors who are on the voter list, the voter identification requirements of the act are a significant impediment to exercising their democratic franchise.

In summary, the Council of Canadians is strongly supportive of those provisions of Bill C-76 that will reverse the anti-democratic reforms of the previous government, including an expansion of the Chief Electoral Officer's mandate to include public education campaigns; a reversal of changes that disallowed the use of a voter information card as a piece of eligible identification at polling stations; a reversal of changes that disallowed one voter vouching for another; and more independence to the Commissioner of Canada Elections.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you, both, for your testimony.

Now we'll go to some rounds of questions, and we'll start with Mr. Simms.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, guests, for joining us today. I really appreciate this as we delve into Bill C-76.

Ms. Furlong, does the gist of Bill C-76, the main thrust of it and all that it's hoping to accomplish, also satisfy what will be in front of the Ontario superior court in the fall of 2018?

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Council of Canadians

Andrea Furlong

It would. We're mostly concerned about the timeline.

As you know, Bill C-33 stalled, and now we have Bill C-76. Our timeline is very intentional, because we want this to be provided for the next federal election, and for Elections Canada to be able to have the time. Our understanding is that they need at least six months, so we're going to continue with our court challenge until the bill has reached royal assent.

To answer your question, yes, it would.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Okay. I may come back to you in just a second.

Mr. Pal, I want to go to you first.

One of the things this bill does...and I agree with you on the fact that it makes a delineation between what the pre-writ period is and activities into the pre-writ period. Can you tell me what is going to be the biggest benefit of this?

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Michael Pal

Do you mean what is going to be the biggest benefit of the pre-writ period?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

I mean the coming into force of Bill C-76.

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Michael Pal

We're talking a lot about problems and how to fill them, but globally Canada has one of the best campaign finance systems in the world. When we look especially to the south, the U.S. campaign finance system is broken. There are enormous amounts of money in the system, and it has a tremendous amount of influence. Canada has an egalitarian approach. That is what the Supreme Court said in Harper, and it's reflected in the Elections Act.

The challenge we had was that if enormous amounts of money were going to be spent in the pre-writ period, how could you still say that you had an egalitarian model? If you have spending limits in the writ period, you also need to have some kind of spending limit in the pre-writ period.

To me, what it really does is further those egalitarian values that are in the Elections Act, which the Supreme Court said are legitimate in the Harper case, by making sure there is a level playing field also in the pre-writ period so that politics is not dominated by those groups, on whatever side of the political spectrum they may be, that have significant access to resources. It gives the average Canadian voter or citizen or individual much more of a chance of having a say and not having their voice drowned out by those with resources.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

One of the things about the pre-writ period—obviously there are several things about the pre-writ period—is that obviously you do get a level of transparency.

I just want to jump into the third party aspect of this as well, which I think is very important, as you say, as for anything else. Regarding the element of transparency—who is involved in what campaign and who is involved in putting out a message that is construed to be a third party—to what extent is this now going to improve that situation?

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Michael Pal

Is it to what extent it's going to improve transparency...? I think it will go quite a ways to improving it. The period only kicks in on June 30. That's the period we're talking about. We started seeing a lot of third parties advertising in only the unregulated period. They would stop when the campaign officially started, and when the spending limits and many more of the transparency requirements in the act for registration and disclosure of details about the workings of those groups would kick in. We now have more transparency in that immediate pre-writ period.

What it will mean is that you'll also have a “pre-pre-writ” period. Before June 30, advertising is still unregulated and there are very minimal requirements in terms of transparency—or none—for third parties depending on how many.... It doesn't dramatically transform transparency throughout the year, but it improves it in the immediate run-up to an election, which I think most voters would say is the most important to them. Who is trying to influence them by running a particular ad? How much money are they spending? Also, as well, potentially, where did they get that money from? In the act, there are disclosure rules that are quite important as to contributions.

It definitely improves transparency, but for a particular time period.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Right, so it's the stop-start mechanism that was there before and obviously was well open. It was not regulated in any which way. It was hard to know who was doing what until the hammer came down, as it were—or the writ was dropped, I should say. Thank you for that.

Ms. Furlong, I've long been a fan of the voter information card, as it's technically called. I like to call it voter identification card—I'm putting my bias on the table—because I think it should be used as ID. Quite frankly, as you and others point out, this is really and truly the only national type of ID available.

I've talked on and on of stories about many seniors who tack this card on their refrigerators or to the wall and say, “This is my way of voting, and that card tells me I'm going to exercise my duty as a Canadian citizen.” Only when they got there did they find out that it's not part of identification whatsoever. People were absolutely dumbfounded.

I want you to drill into one aspect with which I didn't have a lot of experience, and that is the first nations. I didn't have a reserve at the time; I do now. In your work, how have you seen this voter information card becoming true ID to help out in first nations situations?

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Council of Canadians

Andrea Furlong

I think I showed a bit of my bias there, because I did refer to it as the “voter identification card” at one point in my remarks.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

We've all done that.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Council of Canadians

Andrea Furlong

For anyone who shares accommodation and housing—particularly the groups I highlighted—and doesn't have their name on a utility bill or on the lease and doesn't hold a driver's licence, it's difficult to confirm their identity and place of residence. The rules are very narrow. Even with vouching, conceivably, if a poll has 250 electors, the person across the street from you, who is your neighbour and could vouch for you, truly cannot vouch for you because they're not in the same polling station.

The voter information card is one piece of identification. You need two pieces, right? In some of the ways that people were looking at fraud, it was that those could be used fraudulently, but you also need another piece of ID, and that really gives Elections Canada the assurance that the person who is coming forward with that identification card is who they say they are. With students moving quite a bit, their parents' place might be their place of residence where they might have a driver's licence, but if they're in another province and they're moving, it's difficult for them as well to establish their place of residence.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Ms. Furlong.

I'm not sure about my time...?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

You don't have any.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!