Evidence of meeting #111 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was identification.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Lauzon
Scott Jones  Deputy Chief, Information Technology Security, Communications Security Establishment
Coty Zachariah  National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students
Justine De Jaegher  Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Students
Jason Besner  Director, Cyber Threat Evaluation Centre, Information Technology Security, Communications Security Establishment
Daniel Therrien  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Vihar Joshi  Deputy Judge Advocate General, Administrative Law, Canadian Forces
Regan Morris  Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Barbara Bucknell  Director, Policy, Parliamentary Affairs and Research, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Ian Lee  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Arthur Hamilton  Lawyer, Conservative Party of Canada

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Filomena Tassi Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Could we just recap?

Although the suggestion is that we haven't studied this, I feel like it's all that I've studied for months and months. Can the clerk confirm that we've had about 30 hours of witnesses? Do you have the number? That doesn't include the next few days of witnesses. It's in addition to that. For Bill C-33, we studied for....

I'm just concerned about it being suggested that we haven't studied this sufficiently. I am happy if there are witnesses who want to come forward soon, but I don't appreciate the comment that we haven't studied this. I feel that we have studied it. We have 30 plus hours already and we have another—

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I don't mean to interrupt, but where do you get this 30-hour figure from? We met for three hours yesterday, and six hours today, that's nine. Then if you include the minister and the officials that's 11, maybe. We've heard from Canadians for nine hours.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Filomena Tassi Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

As of Thursday, it will be 30 hours. I don't know what it was with Bill C-33, which is included in this. I would like the clerk to tell us.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I don't really—

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Blake, I know you really like interrupting everyone, but you don't have the floor.

Chair—

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I'm just asking where the 30 hours is coming from. We had three hours yesterday, and six hours today.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Filomena Tassi Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

I thought the 30 hours was to the end of today. It's actually to the end of Thursday; by the end of Thursday we will have had 30 hours. I'm not making the point to end discussion. I'm making the point to say that a suggestion that we haven't had witnesses or listened to witnesses in a robust way I think is misrepresentative, particularly in light of the fact that Bill C-33 is also in this bill, which we also spent numerous hours on.

I'd like to get a response from the clerk, not right now, but maybe the next time we meet, as to how many hours of witnesses we heard there. I want to make that point. I don't want to drag this out. I don't want it to be misrepresented that we haven't heard from witnesses.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

She means the CEO's report, not Bill C-33.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Filomena Tassi Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

That's what I meant.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Bittle.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Clearly, there's no path forward.

Mr. Richards, we've been asking for plans from you from weeks.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I gave you one.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

A plan to come up with a plan to come up with a plan is not a plan, Blake. I appreciate that.

We're in camera, so taking swipes at each other is not worthwhile.

6:45 p.m.

Voices

We're not.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

We're not in camera? Fabulous.

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Fabulous. But still, that explains Blake's....

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Tell us what you were going to say.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Don't stop now.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Do it in camera, swear, swear, swear.

Clearly, there's still just a plan to come up with a plan. If the Conservatives want to offer something concrete, I think we could go forward.

There's an offer on the table to extend the amount of time. That's been pushed back. I don't know if we're going to get anywhere tonight.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

What's the offer on the table exactly?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

It's to extend witnesses to Monday if there are any of those who we can re-ask, I guess. If we so choose, we can instruct the clerk to canvass those same witnesses again and let them know that there's another slot available. That gives them four more days and a weekend to prepare and come before committee.

Most of the witnesses, with the exception of maybe the chicken farmers...I'm not sure if they have a good grasp on this type of material about elections.

What my colleague, Filomena, has said it that we've been through a lot of this material with the Chief Electoral Officer's report because 80% of what the Chief Electoral Officer's recommendations were are in Bill C-76. We have thoroughly gone through it. We had the Chief Electoral Officer sit here meeting after meeting with us and also explain to us every time we had any question on any issues.

So we had the foremost expert on elections law here throughout that whole time. I can't even recall how many meetings that was at this point. I would have to go back to take a look. There were 25 meetings. That's over 50 hours there of meetings at that point. There's 50 hours plus the 30 hours of witnesses, now.

I'm just saying that it's not on this legislation but a huge chunk of it really was discussing whether these recommendations were good or not and what they entailed. We have a good understanding, I believe.

Let's put it out there to see if any of those witnesses want to come forward with another time slot. There's at least another six hours of options for them. Then we would have to naturally progress after that. That's the only way I see it. That's what we do as a committee, right?

Once we've had the witnesses, we have to go on to the next stage of the study.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Kmiec.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I'm just going to make a point. In the name of brevity, I'll keep it short.

I sit on the Standing Committee on Finance, and we're going through a statutory review of the anti-money laundering act. We've been at it for eight months—maybe even nine months—at this point. I think we have easily reached almost 100 hours. The committee is travelling this week to study the issue.

I think Bill C-76 is a much bigger deal than the statutory review of the anti-money laundering act. The provisions contained within it have a direct impact on our democracy. The anti-money laundering act provisions are important in and of themselves, but they're not fundamental to what happens in 2019, which is a general election. I understand there is a certain amount of urgency to deal with it.

That being said, you want to get it right in the first place. You want to have all the right witnesses, and the right amount of feedback. You want to keep your list open, as has been the practice on two committees that I have been on, the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, as well as the finance committee. Keep the list open, because as you're questioning witnesses they might say that they know this professor who could provide you with this type of information.

This is a big bill. It's 354 pages. I have gone through it myself. It's a lot to read and compare to what the act says right now. These documents aren't easy to read. Bills aren't made in a format that are simple for anyone to pick up.

I think it's more than reasonable to keep it open, so that witnesses can come in when they can. As you're questioning individuals who come before the committee, they provide new names and you have the opportunity to go and find additional information to test what's in the bill, and its validity. Either it is, and you find evidence out there that confirms the direction that the Government of Canada has taken is the correct one, or they say it's faulty, because of an experience in their jurisdiction.

Commissioner Therrien, who was here today, provided a lot of information about the European context, and how political parties comply with privacy rules. He didn't name specifically that in Italy, they do x, y, and z, or in Greece, they do the following.... He could have said that in Greece, I have the contact for so and so, a commissioner who could provide you with that information. You never know what you're going to get until you start to process off.

Again, I'm just dropping in on this meeting to make a contribution. Other committees have dealt with this in other ways. By keeping it open and not restricting themselves to a strict timetable, they've had a better outcome.

It's an observation.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Not to knock any committee, but maybe we're just more efficient.