Evidence of meeting #112 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was third.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vivian Krause  Researcher and Writer, As an Individual
Gary Rozon  Auditor, Gary Rozon CMA Inc., As an Individual
Anna Di Carlo  National Leader, National Headquarters, Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada
Talis Brauns  Mediation Officer, Marijuana Party
Marc Chénier  General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Lauzon
John Turmel  As an Individual
Brian Marlatt  Communications and Policy Director, Progressive Canadian Party

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Okay. We don't have much time, as we're going to have a vote soon.

Mr. Graham.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chénier, for being with us today.

I saw that you were present when the previous panel of witnesses appeared a few minutes ago.

Do you think that Ms. Krause's allegations are credible?

7:35 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

As I said in my presentation, our investigation is closed. We did not identify any breach of the Canada Elections Act. Currently, the act is mainly focused on election advertising. That said, for all of the other activities a third party might engage in, there is no regulation unless expenses were coordinated with a party or a candidate. In that case, a contribution would be made to that party or candidate. We did not, however, find any proof that there was such a coordination of expenses.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Can you speak to us briefly about the direct consequences of Bill C-23, following which you no longer reported to Elections Canada but to the Public Prosecution Service of Canada? What were the effects of this change?

7:35 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

That did not change our work in any way. Our mandate is still the same. We still functioning at arm's length to the CEO, to the director of public prosecutions, and to the government. In that way, things have not changed.

However, there were negative consequences at the administrative level. It has become more difficult to keep up to date with regard to what is happening at Elections Canada. There have been a lot of personnel changes and we lost the contacts we had before among Elections Canada representatives. When we conduct an investigation, it is important to be able to communicate with those contacts to obtain answers quickly. I assume that the fact that we lost those contacts may diminish our ability to react to crisis situations during elections.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Was the lack of power to compel witnesses to testify an issue for you?

7:40 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

We had to interrupt some of the commissioner's investigations because it was impossible to obtain the evidence we needed. In the political world, there are often allegiances. People provide mutual support to each other and that is normal. An example comes to mind: it often happens that employers do not give their employees three hours so that they can go and vote, despite the fact that this is a legal requirement. We get the sense that the employer exerts pressure on the employees to get them to withdraw the charges. The employees are very reluctant to take part in our investigation. If we had that power, that could encourage them to be more open. They would then say that they didn't have a choice, and that a court order forced them to testify.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Does Bill C-76 give you the power you need in that context?

7:40 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

The power to obtain a court order to compel someone to testify is enough.

In fact, the Competition Bureau has a similar power, but it does not need to use it often. The simple fact of suggesting that it will use it encourages people to speak.

This power is a part of our tool kit and could be very useful in the future.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I have a question on a particular case. Yesterday, we spoke to the Conservative Party lawyer, Mr. Arthur Hamilton. I don't know if you heard that discussion. The lawyer of the Conservative Party was present during the Elections Canada testimony about robocalls, but he said that the Conservative Party was not involved in that.

In that case, why would a third lawyer be present at the interviews conducted by the investigators of the Commissioner of Canada Elections?

7:40 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

I intended to speak about that aspect in my statement, but I had so much to say that I dropped that part.

As for your question on that particular case, unfortunately I cannot speak to the details of an investigation or a complaint we might have received.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Very well.

You suggest we forbid the publication of false statements about a candidate by a foreign entity. How could we enforce that? If someone from outside the country says something against someone in Canada, what can we do about it? It's all well and good to say that that is illegal, but would we have the power to prosecute? Could we send something to INTERPOL? What would happen?

7:40 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

As I said in my statement, that is certainly a challenge for us. All investigative organizations face this type of challenge on issues of territoriality or extraterritoriality. In certain serious cases, countries come to an agreement to obtain help in investigations that are conducted outside their national borders. It would then be possible to obtain information to conduct an investigation. In certain other cases, it would not be possible. You have only to think of what happened in the United States. Some states may do this kind of thing, but the state does not take part in the investigation. These are challenges.

I note that the bill contains a provision that prohibits collusion that would allow a foreign entity to exercise undue influence. So, if someone in Canada had taken part in such an offence, he could be arrested and charged.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

You submitted about 10 amendment proposals. Are there any you would like to address in particular?

7:40 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

The commissioner believes that the recommendations contained in the 35th report of the committee, which discussed section 91, regarding false statements about candidates and leaders, as well as the provision concerning undue influence by foreign nationals, are the best indication of what could be a problem in a world where false news has become a real and acute problem. He strongly encourages the committee to review the recommendations it made to the House of Commons and to consider whether it would be worthwhile to proceed with those.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

My time is up.

Thank you very much.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Reid.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Thank you. Just to be clear, it's still seven minutes?

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Yes, but if the bells start, if people agree, we'll try to stay and get in at least one round.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Yes. That's certainly agreeable to me. It would be unfair to get in my seven minutes and then cut off Mr. Cullen at that point, although I know that everybody else in the room would like it.

7:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

I want to start by asking about a suggestion. We don't use the term “moral turpitude” very much. That effectively means, I assume, that someone makes an accusation, falsely, that I'm guilty of a criminal act, or I have the kind of character that would lead me to be a habitual criminal; i.e., Scott Reid may not have committed an axe murder, but he's the kind of guy who probably would if he had the chance. That's what you're talking about, right?

7:45 p.m.

General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections

Marc Chénier

In the limited jurisprudence we have on the existing section 91 about false statements about candidates, the courts have recognized that it would include such things as allegations about criminality, which the bill does address, but also something else that they call “moral turpitude”. You're right. It is a soft legal concept. It's more recognized in the United States in the immigration context. Even then, in the United States it's very much limited to criminality, so some crimes have a high level of moral turpitude.

In the way it's applied in Canada with respect to section 91, it involves some serious character flaw or something about the character of the person that is problematic and untenable. That's the way the jurisprudence has described it.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

It has to be about my character and not my fitness for office. Saying that Scott Reid is so unbelievably stupid that he can barely get himself out of bed in the morning, let alone be a member of Parliament, while insulting, would not fall into that category.

7:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

That was totally inaccurate.